1 1 VOL. I 2 PAGES 1 - 123 3 4 COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS 5 6 ARBORWAY 7 LIGHT RAIL RESTORATION 8 PUBLIC MEETING 9 10 11 12 13 MODERATOR: Dennis A. DiZoglio 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Curtis Hall Community Center 22 20 South Street Second Floor 23 Jamaica Plain, Massachusetts 24 Wednesday, December 13, 2000 25 Commencing at 6:00 p.m. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 2 1 Representing 2 MASSACHUSETTS BAY TRANSPORTATION AUTHORITY 3 Transportation Building Ten Park Plaza, Room 5750 4 Boston, Massachusetts 02116 5 DENNIS A. DiZOGLIO, Director of Planning 6 JOSEPH M. COSGROVE, Deputy Director of Planning 7 8 Representing 9 URS CORPORATION 10 38 Chauncy Street, 5th Floor Boston, Massachusetts 02111 11 WILLIAM L. GALLAGHER, Vice president, 12 Chief Engineer 13 BRIAN P. VAILLANCOURT, Senior Transportation Planner 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 3 1 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Okay. If I can 2 have your attention, there has been a request to 3 start on time, so we will try to do so. My 4 name is Dennis DiZoglio, and I'm director of 5 planning for the MBTA. And with me this evening 6 are some other members from the MBTA. This is 7 Joe Cosgrove, who is the deputy director, over 8 there. And Pete Calcaterra, project manager. 9 Also with us this evening are some 10 consultants we have hired to help us in this 11 effort, Bill Gallagher from URS and Brian 12 Vaillancourt from URS, over there. And in the 13 front row is Joe Beegan from Rizzo Associates, 14 who is a subconsultant to URS. 15 We also have a transcriber with us 16 this evening, Kathleen McCarthy, and she will be 17 transcribing the notes from this evening's 18 meeting. And she has asked that when we get to 19 the discussion period or interaction period, she 20 has asked if you would like your comments 21 recorded, that if you can mention your name, so 22 she could record it in the minutes. So if you 23 get up and speak two or three times, please just 24 say your name so she will know who is talking so 25 she can record your comments to you personally. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 4 1 So with that as the introduction, 2 let me see if I can talk a little bit about why 3 we are here today and the context that this is 4 all in. And I'm not about to try to give you an 5 overview of the history of this situation with 6 the light rail restoration on the Arborway 7 corridor. So I'm not going to do that, but I'm 8 going to try to hit some of the major issues to 9 try to give you an idea of why we are here this 10 evening. 11 Needless to say, back in 1985 the T 12 discontinued the light rail service. Along 13 comes the early 1990's, and the Central 14 Artery/Tunnel Project is going forward, and 15 there is concern that all this money being 16 invested into the highway is going to create 17 more people to go into the cars and not enough 18 into public transportation. So as part of the 19 permanent process for the Central Artery, there 20 was a suggestion that EOTC or the state 21 undertake a number of different transit 22 improvements. One of the those transit 23 improvements that were recommended in that early 24 stage was the restoration of light rail along 25 the Arborway. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 5 1 Recently there has been a revision 2 to what was approved during the early 90's, and 3 there was a consent order that talked about this 4 issue again. And I think to -- if I don't -- I 5 know this is going to be a lot of legalese, but 6 I just want to make sure you understand what the 7 big picture is. And if I could, I would just 8 like to read what is in the consent order, and 9 the time lines that we believe are associated 10 with this consent order. And if I could, I will 11 read it. And this is pursuant to 310 CMR 7.36, 12 41 A1. 13 "The department finds that EOTC has 14 not yet demonstrated that the Arborway 15 restoration is infeasible. Within 150 days of 16 the effective date of the consent order" -- 17 which we believe would be, since it was signed 18 on September 1, would be February 1. Now 19 there's some confusion, for some of you who may 20 not be familiar with the process, in that DEP 21 sent the T a letter, the deputy commissioner 22 Edward Kounce sent a letter, suggesting it was 23 March 1st. But we believe that we can try and 24 stay with that February 1st. But that's the 25 first time line. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 6 1 But "within 150 days of the 2 effective date of the consent order, EOTC shall 3 conduct a public and a community involvement 4 process for the purpose of scoping and reviewing 5 a revised infeasibility determination and, if 6 necessary, a proposed alternative project for 7 the Arborway restoration project. 8 "If the project is found to be 9 infeasible by EOTC upon conclusion of this 10 process" -- which would be February 1st -- "then 11 within 60 days of EOTC's finding of 12 infeasibility" -- which we believe then would be 13 60 days from there, which would be I guess April 14 1st -- "EOTC shall submit said determination 15 along with a detailed description of a 16 substitute project to the department for review 17 pursuant to 310 CMR 7.36 4. Prior to submission 18 of a proposed alternative project to the 19 department, EOTC shall conduct a public and 20 community involvement process to solicit public 21 comments on the proposed substitute project." 22 And so, what I would envision 23 happening, because of the way they outline it, 24 is that when we get to February 1, after a 25 couple of meetings, if EOTC determines that it MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 7 1 is not feasible and they want to look at an 2 alternative, within 60 days there will be some 3 more public meetings in February, say in March, 4 and then an alternative would be discussed at 5 that March -- I guess it would be April 1 -- 6 time table. 7 So this is going to be a lengthy 8 public process with I would say at least three 9 to four meetings, depending on what happens 10 after this first step. Because if it's 11 determined that it is feasible, then the process 12 will start, there will not be any further public 13 meetings after February 1, and then at that 14 point there will be suggestions by the T as to 15 when they could start the work and a timetable 16 to conduct the work. 17 Now, how does this meeting tonight 18 fit into this whole process I have just 19 outlined? And basically this first meeting is 20 to really help the T review and define the kind 21 of light rail service that you would think from 22 the public's perspective you would like to see 23 along the Arborway corridor. 24 As I said, this is the first meeting 25 in this effort, because once we get that MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 8 1 definition, and we review the kind of ideas that 2 you have, the consultant is going to go back 3 over the next month and try to do a conceptual 4 design of what you are going to suggest this 5 evening. And then we have got this hall booked 6 for January 17, I believe, same time, same 7 station, and they are going to come back and 8 present their findings to all of us again. And 9 we are going to look at them at that point, and 10 then we will go on from there, depending on how 11 everything works from that point. 12 So if it's feasible, then the 13 process stops. If it isn't feasible, then 14 there's some more public process to go on after 15 that. 16 Along that whole way, there will be 17 a lot of public process. Do you have any 18 question on the public process? 19 MR. TOBIAS JOHNSON: I do. Tobias 20 Johnson. 21 I'm just looking over the consent 22 decree here, and I have a question about the 23 process, and your saying if it's found 24 infeasible, then you will move on with the 25 substitute. But as I read the portion of this, MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 9 1 it says, if the project is found infeasible, 2 this section requires EOTC to determine whether 3 the substitute project would achieve equal or 4 greater reductions in various gases, so 5 essentially must make a clear comparison between 6 transit ridership and air quality benefits 7 between the original base case light rail to 8 downtown, and EOTC's proposed substitute. 9 So my question then would be, how 10 are you going to make a clear comparison if you 11 plan to do one following the other, pending the 12 finding of infeasibility? 13 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: The process 14 will have -- that comparison will occur in the 15 second stage. There is not a discussion as to 16 alternative this versus any other alternative. 17 DEP was very clear that they wanted us -- 18 because, as you are probably well aware, there 19 was a study that was done that suggested an 20 alternative service. They found that that was 21 not sufficient, because we hadn't looked at the 22 feasibility of reinstituting light rail 23 service. 24 So we need to complete this first 25 step per their request, and then the second step MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 10 1 will be more of that alternative analysis, if we 2 get to that point. And some of the technical or 3 environmental issues that you referred to will 4 have to be addressed at that time. 5 MR. JOHNSON: Can I have a follow-up 6 on that? Just briefly, the DEP seems to have 7 required that, as I read this, the substitute 8 must also provide greater air quality benefits 9 in the area where the original Arborway 10 restoration project would have been 11 implemented. So what then might be the 12 possibility if, during the latter 60 days, 13 pending a finding of infeasibility, you find 14 that indeed the substitute does not meet the air 15 quality standards? Wouldn't Jamaica Plain be 16 left logically without any transportation, 17 essentially? 18 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I would doubt 19 that you would be left without any 20 transportation. But that would have to be 21 something that DEP would have to determine. If 22 what you said was the case, they would have to 23 determine whether there's any relaxation, I 24 would imagine. 25 On the process only? MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 11 1 MR. ALAN SMITH: Yes, on the 2 process. Alan Smith. 3 I think that the process should not 4 be consecutive. I think it's a flawed concept 5 to try to find, first, feasibility or 6 infeasibility of the light rail vehicle without 7 comparison. In fact, I think it's impossible. 8 Feasibility is not an absolute 9 concept. It is by its very nature a relative 10 concept. Therefore, I urge you to take into 11 account a comparative study in this first step, 12 and I think that is effective. 13 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: To make an 14 editorial comment in some respects, I think the 15 T briefly had previously attempted to discuss 16 this in an alternative fashion, and DEP did not 17 like that approach. And so they're suggesting 18 this consecutive process. 19 We have talked with them about the 20 time line that I just outlined, and they have 21 accepted that as being consistent with what they 22 were hoping for when they put that time line or 23 this together. I'm not sure how you and I can 24 resolve that, but I understand your concern. 25 But that's the cards we have kind of been dealt MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 12 1 with. 2 On the process only. 3 MR. KEVIN MOLONEY: On the process 4 only. Kevin Moloney from Rambler Road. 5 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes. 6 MR. MOLONEY: I think that the DEP 7 found that the T's proposal was not a comparison 8 of apples and apples, it was a comparison of an 9 apple and a turnip, and that was one of the 10 reasons why DEP declined the T's kind invitation 11 to dance. But I think the point is well taken 12 that it has to be a comparison, but a comparison 13 between apples and apples, and not present an 14 opportunity for the MBTA to look at restoration 15 of light rail and to try to attack it, and then 16 hopefully to persuade DEP to change its mind on 17 that basis and then produce some other far less 18 satisfactory alternative that will never be the 19 equivalent of restoration. 20 So it seems to me we ought to get 21 back not to the language that misinterprets the 22 regulation and the requirements, but to get back 23 to the regulation and get back to what the DEP 24 wants. 25 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: All I can say MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 13 1 is the DEP wants what we are doing tonight. 2 MR. MOLONEY: I don't think so. And 3 I think you will find people who have been 4 following this issue in this room, from citizens 5 to state elected public officials, who will 6 explain to you, in my view, that you are 7 incorrect. 8 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I accept that, 9 and we can record it for the record. I can only 10 go with what I have been asked to do. 11 MR. MOLONEY: The point, sir -- the 12 point, sir, is you have some out to the 13 community for a scoping meeting. Presumably, 14 and we would assume that, at least you would be 15 open to hearing the views of the people of this 16 community who depend on that service, who know 17 this issue, and to come at it with an open but 18 not an empty mind. 19 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I think we have 20 tried to come with an open mind. I know you may 21 disagree with me, but -- 22 MR. MOLONEY: Well, you have just 23 told us, in response to Alan, that he had it 24 wrong. 25 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I didn't say he MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 14 1 had it wrong. All I did is say that DEP has 2 asked us to go in this direction. Those are the 3 marching orders that we have. 4 MR. MOLONEY: We don't think so. 5 We don't think so. And Alan was trying to 6 explain to you why that view is incorrect. 7 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Thank you. 8 On the process, please, before we 9 get -- yes? 10 MR. MARC FREY: Marc Frey from 11 Burroughs Street. 12 Is there a definition of 13 feasibility? I mean, you have got a list of 14 feasibility issues. Where do these come from? 15 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I believe that 16 they are part of the regulation on feasibility. 17 MR. WILLIAM GALLAGHER: Basically 18 what the DEP consent order said is that you will 19 look at the economic, engineering and 20 environmental feasibility of the restoration of 21 the light rail. These are our ideas of what we 22 will look at during the process. 23 MR. FREY: As part of the 24 environmental aspect of that -- 25 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Can we wait on MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 15 1 that? That's not a process issue. Can we wait 2 until we talk about that, please. 3 MR. FREY: Okay. It just seems to 4 me part and parcel, that I think the 5 environmental issue would necessarily involve a 6 comparison approach. You can't do that in 7 isolation. 8 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes. Just on 9 the process issue. 10 MR. FRANKLYN SALIMBENE: Franklyn 11 Salimbene. 12 Mr. DiZoglio, nice to meet you. I 13 think we have spoken on the phone. 14 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Nice to meet 15 you. 16 MR. SALIMBENE: Just with regard to 17 the DEP letter and consent decree, I think the 18 question here is how long does the process go, 19 as well as whether or not the process is a 20 comparative process. I think in my view it 21 really does need to be a comparative process, 22 because in the end, if a judgment is to be made, 23 the judgment has to be made between options. 24 The judgment can't be made between something and 25 nothing, which is really the way you are MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 16 1 proposing to do this. 2 With regard to the time frame, 3 however, I do take exception to the 4 interpretation of the letter from DEP that 5 indicates that you have time beyond March 2, and 6 I think I put it in my letter to you. The 7 language of the letter from Commissioner Kounce 8 as well as being reflected in the consent 9 decree, is very clear. 10 It says "EOTC" -- that's you -- 11 "shall conduct a public and community 12 involvement process for the purpose of scoping 13 and reviewing a revised infeasibility 14 determination," which is what you are proposing 15 to start with, "and if necessary" -- the 16 "necessary" is based on a finding by EOTC that 17 light rail is infeasible -- "and if necessary, a 18 proposed alternative project for Arborway 19 restoration. This process shall be concluded by 20 March 2." 21 That sentence defines the deadline 22 for the process mentioned in the previous 23 sentence, which is "for the purpose of scoping 24 and reviewing a revised infeasibility 25 determination, and if necessary, a proposed MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 17 1 alternative. This process shall be concluded by 2 March 2." So looking at the language of the 3 letter, you are restricted, it seems to me, to a 4 deadline of March 2 for all of the work you are 5 going to do, both light rail evaluation and any 6 alternative evaluation. And within that time 7 frame, it really becomes a comparative process. 8 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: And ultimately 9 I think it could be, if at the end of January or 10 say midJanuary, and you have a February 1st time 11 frame that coincides with the hundred fifty 12 days, if we say, or EOTC makes a determination 13 that it's feasible, then we don't have to keep 14 on going. But if they do say it's infeasible, 15 then that February time frame, I think that you 16 are right, there will be a comparative 17 discussion in that February time frame before 18 the March 1st or March 2nd time frame that's 19 alluded to. 20 But we still have that 60 days to 21 complete that alternative analysis, but there 22 will be some work in February, if we get to that 23 point. 24 MR. SALIMBENE: Well, I can agree 25 with you with regard to the time line. But on MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 18 1 the first point, again, the issue of 2 feasibility, as I think a few have already 3 indicated, is a comparative concept, and you 4 cannot decide one transit option is not 5 feasible, then you come to study a second 6 transit option. What if that is found 7 infeasible, and then you study a third transit 8 option and that is found infeasible? Where does 9 this stop? You have to take the issues and look 10 at them together. I think that's the point that 11 I would make on that. 12 MR. MOLONEY: Just quickly on the 13 process again, Kevin Moloney from Rambler Road. 14 The regulations have determined that 15 it is feasible to restore light rail. The 16 burden of proof is on the T to demonstrate that 17 restoration is infeasible. That word means 18 impossible. 19 So let's, if you would, please, keep 20 our burden of proof and our meanings clear, 21 because words and burden of proof are very, very 22 important. The burden is on the T to prove that 23 it is infeasible, impossible, for the three 24 factors mentioned in the regulations, to 25 restore. The burden is not on the community to MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 19 1 prove that it is feasible to restore light rail. 2 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: And I'm not 3 suggesting that this evening. First, there's 4 two points. One is that we are not suggesting 5 that the community determine whether it's 6 feasible or infeasible per se. We would like 7 some feedback on some of the issues that may 8 come up when we do a conceptual design. 9 But on the first point, and the most 10 important point, is that we are going to have to 11 respectfully agree to disagree that the 12 definition that you said about impossible -- I'm 13 not sure what the definition is. What we have 14 been charged to do is do a study, bring back 15 those results, and they can determine whether 16 it's feasible or not. 17 You are saying impossible is a much 18 stronger word than "feasibility," and so we can 19 agree to disagree that -- I don't want to leave 20 here saying that I agree with your definition. 21 But at the same time, we are going to try to do 22 this with your feedback. And we are not asking 23 you to say this doesn't work or not, but to give 24 us some direction as to what we should try to 25 conceptually design. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 20 1 MR. MOLONEY: I just wanted you to 2 understand that it is the community's point of 3 view, who are interested in restoring the last 4 light rail, to read the regulation properly and 5 to understand where the burden of proof is. 6 It's on the T. And if you direct yourself to 7 any well-recognized -- 8 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I don't 9 disagree with that. 10 MR. MOLONEY: -- dictionary, you 11 will find the word infeasible is defined as 12 impossible. 13 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: It is our 14 burden to do that. You are right. 15 A process issue? 16 MR. BRIT SMITH: Brit Smith from 17 Bishop Street. 18 This is actually the same issue that 19 now one, two, three, four people have already 20 raised. That is, how do you propose to 21 determine feasibility in a vacuum? And you 22 haven't given us an answer. How can you 23 determine whether something is feasible unless 24 you are comparing it to something else? 25 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: That is not a MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 21 1 process issue. But at the same time -- 2 MR. BRIT SMITH: Yes, it is a 3 process issue, because you made the process such 4 that we are only going to be comparing 5 sequentially, and that is the process, and we 6 are saying that process is flawed at its heart. 7 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I can only 8 repeat what DEP said to us. The first attempt 9 to do what you just said was determined not to 10 be sufficient. An alternative analysis that was 11 done -- I'm not even sure, since I wasn't with 12 the T at the time -- over a year or so ago, had 13 that alternative. And DEP said, "You know 14 what? That isn't sufficient. We want you to do 15 an infeasibility of light rail." It didn't say 16 the alternative. 17 I know that doesn't make sense to 18 some people who have mentioned -- 19 MR. BRIT SMITH: Does it make sense 20 to you? How does it make sense to you? 21 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: But that's what 22 I have been charged to do. 23 MR. BRIT SMITH: Well, how can you 24 make a decision? 25 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I have to go MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 22 1 forward with what is asked of me, the cards that 2 are dealt to me. 3 MR. SMITH: You have to be able to 4 describe what you have been asked to go forward 5 with. 6 MR. JOSEPH COSGROVE: Joe Cosgrove, 7 deputy director of planning. 8 I think, responding to that 9 gentleman's comment about the burden being on us 10 to show it's infeasible, how do you do that 11 without starting out with this process? Why go 12 through the comparative analysis if you don't 13 make that first step? 14 MR. BRIT SMITH: It's only 15 infeasible in relationship to something else. 16 MR. COSGROVE: The infeasibility 17 standard is totally separate from a comparative 18 analysis standard. We could do a comparative 19 analysis and show another service is a better 20 service, but that has nothing to do with the 21 infeasibility question. 22 MS. EDWINA CLOHERTY: Edwina 23 Cloherty, Peter Paley Road. 24 It's still on the process, the 25 question of what is the study going to contain MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 23 1 of this process. 2 The study to which you refer was a 3 study that was incomplete because you didn't 4 study the entire corridor, and therefore the T 5 did not do the comparison between light rail and 6 an alternative along the entire corridor, which 7 made that study flawed. Now, it doesn't take a 8 brain surgeon to tell you that the path you are 9 embarking on now is more than flawed. It is -- 10 you supply the adjective. 11 There were studies done in this 12 neighborhood, in the entire city, in the whole 13 southwest corridor, years ago to compare a 14 depressed highway with an elevated highway. 15 Nobody talked about a highway just by itself. 16 They talked about a depressed highway and 17 compared it to an elevated highway, and which 18 was better. And we participated, and it made 19 sense. 20 Then we talked about a depressed 21 highway, and no highway, and transit. All along 22 the way there were alternatives discussed. 23 Please don't play us for fools. Please don't 24 waste our time. Please don't ask us to go 25 through a study for something that you have no MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 24 1 interest in, really. We aren't talking about 2 planning garages that aren't going to be built. 3 We want you to spend money and do a valid 4 comparison study of the feasibility of restoring 5 light rail and comparing it with its 6 alternatives that you have in mind for this 7 area. 8 Please put us -- have us spend our 9 time valuably. Do not waste our time. And if 10 this is what you expect us to do, a piecemeal 11 review, then you are wasting our time, 12 taxpayers' dollars, and your own time. It makes 13 no sense. 14 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I can 15 appreciate your concern, but -- 16 MS. CLOHERTY: We don't need 17 appreciation, sir. What we need is a 18 determination to do what you are supposed to be 19 doing, a feasibility study all along the 20 corridor, with both -- or whatever alternatives 21 you have. Do it now. Don't waste our time. 22 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: We have been 23 charged to do what we outlined. If DEP said 24 they wanted an expanded alternative study, they 25 would have said, "Please expand the alternative MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 25 1 analysis." They did not want that. I can't 2 help it. I understand your concern, but that 3 is what has been suggested to us by DEP. 4 MR. ALAN SMITH: A possible solution 5 -- because you have heard a lot of voices 6 express the idea that feasibility is inherently 7 a relative concept and therefore inherently must 8 be comparative. My hunch is that you agree with 9 that. That's what you have at least 10 communicated to me, that the only reason you are 11 doing this is because you are in effect ordered 12 to by another agency. 13 May I then ask of you, and I think 14 perhaps -- I think I don't speak only for myself 15 -- to go back to that agency with our 16 reactions, which are on record, and say, "This 17 is what makes sense to me" -- that is to say, to 18 you -- "and this is what makes sense to the 19 community, which has voiced its opinion." 20 Can I ask you to do that and go 21 back? Because otherwise -- 22 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I will 23 certainly bring back your concerns. I can't 24 editorialize for myself, but I certainly can 25 bring back your concerns. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 26 1 MR. ALAN SMITH: I think that would 2 be useful, because we need to make sure that 3 this process is a comparative process. 4 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Any other 5 process issues? 6 Yes? 7 MR. JEFF KURLAND: Jeff Kurland. 8 My understanding is that the letter 9 from the DEP also requires you by December 31 to 10 provide some sort of substitute that is better 11 in air quality than what exists now. Is that 12 true? 13 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Not to my 14 knowledge. 15 Okay. Just one more. 16 MR. SALIMBENE: If I could clarify a 17 point with regard to the study that was 18 submitted last year to DEP by EOTC, that T study 19 on the Arborway was a comparative study. And it 20 wasn't that DEP objected to the fact that the 21 study was comparative. What DEP objected to was 22 the fact that the study was an incomplete 23 comparison based on the wrong base case. 24 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I know that was 25 suggested, right. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 27 1 MR. SALIMBENE: So that I don't 2 think that a valid interpretation of the consent 3 decree is that they don't want a comparison. 4 DEP does want a comparison. 5 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I beg to 6 differ. DEP has told us that this is the 7 process they endorse. 8 MR. SALIMBENE: Well, these meetings 9 are something they endorse, yes. But the way 10 you have defined the process isn't what they 11 have said. 12 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: They have. 13 They have confirmed it. But you know, I mean we 14 can talk about that after, but they have 15 confirmed that this process is the way they want 16 us to proceed. 17 MR. MOLONEY: Would you kindly 18 direct us to the writing where that appears so 19 we can study it ourselves? 20 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: A writing that 21 appears? 22 MR. MOLONEY: Was it in a letter, a 23 fax? 24 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: It was in 25 discussions. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 28 1 MR. MOLONEY: No, we have the 2 decision, sir, we have the regulations. And 3 that's what we are used to reading and studying, 4 and that provides the basis in part for our 5 comments. It's absolutely impossible for us to 6 accept your representation that at some meeting 7 somewhere, somebody said and articulated to you 8 that direction. And it's unacceptable for you 9 to represent that that's the position of DEP. 10 The position of DEP is found in its 11 decision. And Franklyn is absolutely right. 12 And that's why I mentioned before, apples and 13 oranges. 14 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: We can verify 15 it for you. 16 MR. MOLONEY: In writing, sir. In 17 writing. 18 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: No problem. 19 MR. MOLONEY: When will that occur? 20 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: We have already 21 sent a letter to verify it, but we haven't had a 22 response yet. 23 MR. MOLONEY: I am suggesting that 24 we suspend this meeting until we get 25 confirmation one way or the other as to what MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 29 1 DEP's position is. 2 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: The only 3 problem with that -- 4 MR. KEVIN FITZGERALD: Kevin 5 Fitzgerald, state representative from Jamaica 6 Plain. And we have been involved in this 7 process since before they built the trollies. 8 What you are hearing, regardless of 9 -- everybody in the room, whether they have a 10 preference or what kind of transportation they 11 either want or they don't want, you are just 12 hearing that through this community process, and 13 we have been through a thousand on a thousand 14 different issues, it is, get it out on the 15 table. People are receptive enough, bright 16 enough to argue -- they will argue their 17 positions until the cows come home. 18 But if we have to bring DEP -- I'll 19 make the request. We'll have DEP sitting next 20 to you, so that people understand from the 21 outset. They just don't want to be in the 22 process feeling that we are a step behind here 23 or a day behind, and we are not on the same 24 page, and we don't have all the information. 25 There's a lot of interest around this issue. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 30 1 People call me up one way or the other all the 2 time. 3 You know, I was part and parcel of 4 the process when we stopped to reconstruct. It 5 was a temporary interruption of a service. That 6 was all it was, temporary interruption of a 7 service, and we were led to believe that the 8 trolleys would be back, "No problem, we will 9 talk to you tomorrow. " 10 Now we know it's gone way beyond 11 that. And we know clearly, what these people 12 are saying nicely is that everyone is 13 sophisticated enough to know that people have a 14 preference. People in a position of power and 15 influence in the administration, people at DOT, 16 all of that, people in the state, everyone in 17 the community, they have a preference. We 18 understand. 19 If the preference is one thing, and 20 that's the preference of the group that you work 21 for, that's okay. But if we are going to start 22 the process off tonight and we're going to say, 23 hey, we are going to be open about that, this is 24 where we're coming from, but we need an 25 opportunity so that all those chips are on the MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 31 1 table, so that we all understand where we are 2 beginning from and where we could possibly end. 3 You're going to hear a broad range 4 of interests around what it is. But if you try 5 to bring us down one track -- 6 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Now we know 7 where your stand is. 8 REPRESENTATIVE FITZGERALD: But 9 again, no matter where I stand, that's the 10 point. We have stood that way. But the point 11 is, the community may tell us differently. I 12 mean there are people here absolutely adamantly 13 opposed to the light rail. I understand that. 14 But in terms of fairness and getting the job 15 done, to make your job easier, you know, if we 16 need to come back with DEP sitting here, we will 17 make the call, and we'll make sure that they are 18 here so that everybody understands what's on the 19 table, what's not on the table, and why. What 20 we are looking for tonight is a fair fight. Is 21 that all right, folks? Tell me. 22 I mean, we know where we are 23 headed. We know the terrain. We have been 24 here, at least a number of us have, for many 25 years. And it's okay, there's going to be a MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 32 1 winner and a loser. Someone's preference is 2 going to be instituted and others are not. 3 FROM THE FLOOR: Well, I want my 4 vote counted. 5 REPRESENTATIVE FITZGERALD: We want 6 our votes counted. 7 But please -- and I know you are 8 doing your job, and I respect that as a public 9 official. I mean it, I respect that. But the 10 point is you are doing your job, but unless we 11 are able to have people feel a sense of that 12 sort of fairness or we are on the same page, all 13 at the same table -- we will fight about the 14 difference of opinion and a whole bunch of 15 things, but you can't start off having people 16 feeling like they are not going to be heard, and 17 it's already been determined, and we are going 18 to sort of move you over to the curb here. 19 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Well, a couple 20 of issues. First of all, it's not the intent 21 not to let people be heard. In fact, there's 22 going to be as much public participation as we 23 can fit into a time frame that has been thrust 24 upon us. But I can appreciate the request to 25 make sure that everybody feels comfortable with MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 33 1 what DEP's interpretation is, and I will be the 2 first one tomorrow to try to clarify that. And 3 I will try to do that, to give people a comfort 4 level, or at least try to understand 5 collectively what they are suggesting. 6 But the problem that I have is that 7 I have a consent order that says I have to be 8 done with a process by February 1. If I do not 9 begin the process, I'm not going to be able to 10 get to that deadline. So while I appreciate the 11 need to make sure that DEP intended for this 12 process -- which we believe we are going in the 13 direction, but we need to clarify or document 14 that -- it would be hard pressed for me to say, 15 let's not do anything this evening, because even 16 the things that we are going to talk about 17 tonight, if we do, say at the next meeting, 18 expand this to an alternative analysis, we'll 19 say, just for the sake of discussion, that the 20 things we are going to be talking about would be 21 able to be built into this, because the kind of 22 light rail that could be restored could take a 23 lot of different visions. And we just want to 24 understand what kind of vision people would like 25 to see, so that if we do an alternative -- say MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 34 1 we go back, DEP says, "Yes, we intended to do 2 alternative all along," and come back here and 3 start the alternative, we haven't done anything 4 for naught. We have taken the ideas and at 5 least clarified for the consultants what kind of 6 light rail they should use to compare to other 7 alternatives. 8 So it is a building process, no 9 matter which way we go. The first step is, 10 let's find out from DEP if we are going on the 11 right track. Again, I reiterate that they kind 12 of verbally said so, but it's not good enough, 13 let's get a verification in writing. 14 But on this step of going to the 15 next level, what we do here tonight can still be 16 utilized in an alternative analysis, because we 17 have to compare something to the alternative. 18 We are trying to understand what it is that we 19 should be comparing if we go on that route. Or 20 we can take it in the other direction. 21 But we can clarify that with DEP 22 tomorrow and not lose any ground by what we are 23 going to do tonight. 24 If you don't -- I know that there is 25 some concern, obviously. But if you will MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 35 1 indulge me, you will understand why I need some 2 direction from the public, when I need to 3 identify what would be the best way to return 4 light rail. Then, once -- because there's 5 different ways of doing that. So if we can 6 discuss, and I can try to focus that discussion 7 so we can talk about it, then after we 8 understand how you would like to see light rail 9 restored, if DEP says comparisons, then that 10 will be what we compare to the alternative. If 11 they say no, then we'll keep on going in the 12 process. 13 But I don't think that what I'm 14 suggesting is going to deter or prevent you from 15 getting it clarified and moving in that 16 alternative basis. 17 Yes? 18 MS. CLOHERTY: Edwina Cloherty, 19 Peter Parley Road. 20 You have paid consultants on board. 21 We have come out here to get involved in a 22 process of reviewing the feasibility of 23 restoring light rail as compared with other 24 alternatives, which, in other meetings that you 25 have held, CPCAY meetings, Community Planning MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 36 1 Committee for the Arborway Yard -- in which 2 those meetings, different alternatives for this 3 same service were talked about. So you have to 4 have alternatives in mind. You know what they 5 are. 6 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Could I just 7 say, can't we just let this meeting define -- 8 could I just give you an idea of the confusion 9 that we have in-house as to how light rail can 10 be done? And then you can tell -- because there 11 might be unanimity as to how you would like to 12 see light rail, but I would like to outline for 13 you the concerns, because light rail can be a 14 lot of different things. 15 MS. CLOHERTY: And I think that we 16 should get the benefit of what your paid 17 consultants have to offer us. You should tell 18 us what you have in mind, the scope of your 19 study, tell it to us, rather than pick our 20 brains first. 21 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Let me -- 22 MS. CLOHERTY: And do it, if you -- 23 do it with alternatives. I'm all -- I will do 24 anything you want. But if you want it only for 25 light rail, it is an incomplete study. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 37 1 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Let me discuss 2 with you my dilemma, and then you tell me if I'm 3 asking you something that's inappropriate. 4 Because I have the consultants here to do that, 5 but let me see if I can tell you what my dilemma 6 is. 7 This is my dilemma. We can -- the 8 easiest way, I guess, to restore service would 9 be to use the existing tracks. However, we have 10 been told by the Architectural Barriers Board 11 that we have to make the service handicapped- 12 accessible, and we also have some safety issues 13 that have been raised by police and fire. So, 14 going the old way may not address those issues. 15 So we have a couple of other ways 16 that we would like to think about restoring 17 service. One would be very drastic, and we 18 think maybe too drastic, and I think you'll find 19 out when I say this, the easiest way for us to 20 restore service is to use the parking lanes, 21 come down with the tracks there. But the 22 negative part about that is eliminating parking, 23 and I'm not sure everybody would like to 24 eliminate that kind of parking. That's one idea 25 I could have them study, but I want to know if MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 38 1 that is totally off the wall or it has some 2 merit. 3 Another idea would be to use the 4 tracks the way they are, but then we bring out 5 what they call a bulb-out, we bring out the 6 sidewalk like a station, so that people can use 7 that as an accessibility point. Now, that helps 8 us with some of the accessibility issues that we 9 gain if we put it in the inside. It doesn't get 10 at some of the safety issues, but it's another 11 idea. And we wanted to get some idea, does this 12 make some sense? Because we are tied up with 13 some of these handicapped-accessibility issues, 14 and we are trying to find the best way. 15 So these are the kind of thoughts 16 that we need to get some feedback from you as to 17 whether they make some sense or not. I have got 18 Bill Gallagher here, who has prepared some 19 charts to talk about some stations, about 20 cutting back on some stations if we had to. 21 What do you think about that? We need for you 22 to define something. 23 And again, it's a two-step thing. 24 One is, even if we go to alternative, I have to 25 know what I'm comparing. And if we don't do the MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 39 1 alternative, I still need this anyway, so you 2 haven't lost anything to help define what is the 3 best way to return light rail. 4 MS. CLOHERTY: Yes, you have. 5 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: What have we 6 lost? 7 MR. ALAN SMITH: This is Alan Smith. 8 You said there were some, quote-unquote, safety 9 issues raised by police and fire. Was that also 10 oral communication? 11 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: No, we have 12 some letters. 13 MR. ALAN SMITH: From fire chiefs? 14 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes, fire chief 15 and police chief. But I mean, that would come 16 out later. What I'm trying to do is understand 17 -- I mean, I would like him to kind of overview 18 this, but at the same time, I don't know if some 19 of the ideas I threw out there are totally off 20 the wall, and that's what I want. But I don't 21 want you to tell me now until after he gets 22 done, because he's come here and I have to pay 23 him anyway, and I might as well get something 24 from him. 25 MS. KAREN WEPSIC: I'm Karen Wepsic. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 40 1 I would like to find out how the 2 consultant was chosen. Was there a world search 3 or a United States search for the best 4 consulting group that has done light rail in, 5 say, Portland? And also what were -- how was 6 the contract let out for this consultant? Was 7 it not indeed -- I'll answer my own question. 8 Wasn't it indeed an add-on to an already 9 existing contract for the Washington Street 10 replacement service, which it is known they want 11 64 articulated buses? So isn't that unfair, to 12 give that same consultant this job? 13 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: There's a lot 14 of answers to that question. 15 MR. GALLAGHER: I would like to 16 respond to that. As far as our qualifications 17 go, our company, URS Corporation, we are the 18 second largest transportation company in the 19 country. We have done light rail all over the 20 country. We have looked at Green Line service 21 for the MBTA, on other lines for the Transitway, 22 since 1986. We feel that we are very qualified 23 to look at this. 24 What I intend to show you tonight is 25 to interpret conditions that are out there and MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 41 1 try to agree on how we could make this service 2 feasible. This is what I'm trying to do. 3 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I can't get him 4 to speak and -- you've got questions on what we 5 are trying to do? 6 MR. DAVE NATHAN: Dave Nathan. 7 My question is, if there is no set 8 agenda tonight, there is no specific thing to be 9 accomplished tonight. Right? 10 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I think that's 11 -- well, we do have some specific things. No, 12 we do. I would like to try to define -- 13 MR. NATHAN: May I suggest this? 14 That you explicitly outline exactly what you 15 intend to present and to accomplish before the 16 end of tonight. 17 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I can tell you 18 right now. It's a two-sentence thing. 19 MR. NATHAN: And I have one other 20 suggestion. It is that, if we are talking about 21 infeasibility, could the consultant in his 22 presentation begin with the original service 23 that existed on December 31, 1985 and say at 24 each point, each issue that was infeasible, 25 before you talk about some other feasible MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 42 1 alternative. 2 MR. GALLAGHER: Yes. 3 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Well, wait. 4 You are going to talk about -- in some respects 5 -- 6 MR. NATHAN: That's the standard 7 service. 8 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Right. 9 MR. NATHAN: So we have to talk 10 about -- 11 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: That is going 12 to be addressed. I didn't think we were going 13 to do that tonight per se, unless you're ready 14 to do something like that. I thought we were 15 going to -- because the original service -- 16 well, I will let you answer that one. We will 17 try to do that. 18 But let me answer your first 19 question. This is what we hope to accomplish. 20 We hope that Bill is going to outline a variety 21 of ways to return light rail, and I would like 22 for the public to give me feedback as to whether 23 they like this kind of way, this way, a hybrid. 24 You tell me the kind of service that you would 25 like to get restored, so I can have something MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 43 1 that we can use as a starting point, whether 2 it's an alternative starting point or whether -- 3 going forward, I need to know where we are 4 starting from, and that's what we are hoping to 5 get from tonight. 6 Could I hear from someone who hasn't 7 talked yet? 8 MS. MARGARET PATTERSON: Margaret 9 Patterson, Burroughs Street. 10 I would like it very much if he 11 could start his presentation. 12 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Great. Could 13 we start? 14 MR. JEFFREY FERRIS: Jeffrey Ferris. 15 I would like to start too, but just 16 -- as you have heard, we have many people in 17 Jamaica Plain who are very adamant about the 18 return of streetcar service, and just for some 19 balance of one who is not anxious to see the 20 rail service, I would like to take a moment, I 21 have a brief prepared remark I would just like 22 to read, and then I'm very anxious to hear what 23 we have here. 24 To trolley or not to trolley, that 25 is the question. Whether 'tis nobler for the MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 44 1 transit riders to suffer the starts and stops of 2 light rail along this corridor, or to ride the 3 buses against this sea of troubles, and by 4 rubber tires, to diminish the automobiles. 5 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Thank you. 6 Could we kind of move on, unless you 7 really have to talk more? 8 MR. SALIMBENE: Well, my question is 9 this. We have kind of foundered on the word 10 "feasibility," and you are asking us to give 11 you some ideas about the way the service ought 12 to be restored. Is it that you are going to 13 define feasibility based on our opinions about 14 what we want and what we don't want? Is that 15 the definition? 16 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: No, no. All 17 I'm looking for is, am I crazy to put it down 18 one side or the other? I'm not looking for you 19 to define anything other than what you think is 20 best for the return. Bulb-outs, down the 21 middle, down the side? I need to get some 22 feeling -- I don't want to study down the side 23 if everyone says that's the stupidest idea. 24 I've got to understand that, and 25 he's going to give you the overview so we can do MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 45 1 it. We are not going to get to the overview if 2 we keep on doing this, but -- can you be very 3 brief? 4 MR. TOM CHILD: My name is Tom 5 Child. 6 You guys want a comparison -- this 7 gentleman has a comparison for light rail, it's 8 my understanding, different versions of light 9 rail. All right? Obviously he doesn't have 10 other -- maybe an electric bus version with him 11 tonight. We are here tonight, he has options 12 for us to listen to. It's been an hour, and you 13 guys have dissected the word "feasibility." 14 Could we please get to the actual meat of the 15 topic and talk about the transit line? 16 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: If nobody has 17 any major objections, why don't you guys give 18 the overview. But that was the focus. 19 MR. ALAN SMITH: This isn't an 20 objection, but the actual meat of this topic has 21 been going on since the beginning of this 22 meeting. 23 MR. GALLAGHER: I would like to 24 start out by saying that our scope is to look at 25 the feasibility of restoring light rail to the MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 46 1 Arborway corridor. And I just -- and we are 2 looking to find ways that we can do that. And 3 what we are trying to do, as a follow-up to what 4 Dennis has been saying, is we would like to get 5 some agreement if possible on some of the ways 6 to go forward so that we can look at this and 7 see if we can find a feasible way to do this, 8 and this is our charge. 9 So first of all, all of the graphics 10 that you see up here -- I know that you can't 11 read them from where you are, but they are all 12 included in your handout, so if anybody doesn't 13 have a handout, we will get you one. I think 14 there's some extras up here. If anybody needs 15 one, we'll get you one so that you can follow 16 along with me. 17 The first graphic we have is the 18 Arborway corridor from South Huntington Avenue, 19 Centre Street, South Street, down to Forest 20 Hills. What we have shown is from previous 21 reports, in previous discussions, what we think 22 are the stations that the community would like 23 restored. We have got two in the vicinity of 24 Heath Street, just below the circle by the VA 25 Hospital. We have got two right in the vicinity MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 47 1 of Evergreen Street. 2 We have got two at the Perkins 3 Street area. We have two in the 4 Moraine-Pershing Streets areas. We have two in 5 the Robinwood area, two in Pond Street. Two in 6 Seaverns. Two in the Monument area, two in 7 Jamaica Street. Two in the Saint Rose-Anson 8 area. And then of course Forest Hills, which 9 still exists. 10 Also shown on the graphic is the 11 nominal width of each of these roads. South 12 Huntington Avenue is 54 feet, which lends itself 13 to a little bit more flexibility than some of -- 14 the other two roads. Centre Street is nominally 15 42 feet. And South Street is nominally 40 16 feet. 17 Now, all of these roads have parking 18 on both sides of the road, which, the normal 19 city width of a parking lane is eight feet. So 20 if you take 16 feet away from any of these 21 widths, that is the width that you have to work 22 with for both traffic and light rail. 23 Yes? 24 MR. JOHN KYPER: John Kyper, Centre 25 Street, Roxbury. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 48 1 I just have a question on the 2 widths. Is that the -- 3 MR. GALLAGHER: Curb to curb. 4 MR. KYPER: The widest point? The 5 average width? 6 MR. GALLAGHER: Curb to curb. 7 Huntington Avenue, I think we tested it in about 8 three places. Centre Street, similarly. South 9 Street may get up a little bit wider than 40, 10 but it's 40 to 42, if anything. 11 MR. KYPER: Those are averages, 12 then? 13 MR. GALLAGHER: Yes. 14 I guess what I would like to get 15 tonight is the community's understanding of 16 where -- if we were going to restore the light 17 rail, if these are approximately the locations 18 that we would want to use. 19 Yes? 20 FROM THE FLOOR: I think this is, 21 it's too hard to make this decision on the basis 22 of one thing, and then turn it around and say, 23 this is the basis for a study. I don't know -- 24 MR. GALLAGHER: Well, in order for 25 us to look at the feasibility of light rail, the MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 49 1 station locations are very important. 2 FROM THE FLOOR: I agree, but this 3 should be for a workshop, not to throw it out 4 and say, what do you think? It's too much. 5 MR. GALLAGHER: Well, first of all, 6 this is not the first time that these have been 7 presented. These were presented originally in a 8 study done for the city back in 1988. And I 9 understood from discussions with some of the 10 community members that there was a consensus on 11 the consolidation of these stops. 12 These are not the original stops. 13 The original stops had a couple up in the Heath 14 Street area, and there was some movement of some 15 of these stops along the way. But I would like 16 to get some kind of consensus, or if there's 17 ones that are completely off the wall, I guess I 18 need to know that. 19 Yes, sir? 20 MR. ALAN SMITH: This is okay as far 21 as it goes, but I think it's very important to 22 remember and to keep in mind that the 23 comparative feasibility study, which I am 24 confident will be done, has to take into account 25 all the way to Park Street. That's what we are MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 50 1 talking about. So I wouldn't want this drawing 2 to define that. 3 MR. GALLAGHER: But the stops from 4 Brigham Circle to Park Street or Heath Street 5 are defined because they are physically there. 6 We need to know where these would be. 7 MR. ALAN SMITH: Agreed, agreed. I 8 just want to define what we're looking at. 9 MR. GALLAGHER: Yes? 10 MR. RIK AHLBERG: I'm Rik Ahlberg, 11 Round Hill Street. 12 I'm curious as to why you don't 13 include the stations that are between -- that 14 are not on the reserve right-of-way, the ones 15 that are just rebuilt, which -- 16 MR. GALLAGHER: I'm sorry? 17 MR. AHLBERG: If you go on South 18 Huntington Avenue today, you can see the freshly 19 laid tracks -- why those stations aren't 20 included in this design. 21 MR. GALLAGHER: Well, the service is 22 going to exist down to Heath Street. It is 23 running down to Heath Street. Right? 24 FROM THE FLOOR: Not at the moment. 25 MR. GALLAGHER: Well, it is going to MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 51 1 be restored. 2 MR. AHLBERG: Have you considered 3 the designs that were looked at by the MBTA when 4 they designed that new rail that was just laid 5 from Brigham Circle -- from about the Riverway 6 station to Heath Street? 7 MR. GALLAGHER: We haven't gotten 8 that far yet. 9 MR. AHLBERG: Okay. It's pertinent, 10 because if you are talking about design for 11 South Huntington, there were design alternatives 12 that were discussed by the community at meetings 13 last year when the T was planning to discontinue 14 service after Brigham Circle. The community 15 talked about what are the options for design, 16 and the MBTA told the community that the only 17 option that is feasible for that service in the 18 time line that was given was to reconstruct it 19 exactly as it was, that the kinds of 20 alternatives you will be getting to in terms of 21 curb extensions and things like that weren't 22 something that we could talk about. 23 MR. GALLAGHER: I wasn't part of 24 those discussions or decisions. 25 MR. AHLBERG: But that's the point MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 52 1 I'm trying to make. 2 MR. GALLAGHER: But I can say that 3 one of the reasons that we have to go and make 4 handicapped platforms for this service, because 5 it was shut down for more than five years. If 6 this was an existing service -- am I right? 7 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Right. I think 8 the reason why they wanted to try to stay within 9 the existing was if they moved it, they would 10 trigger the handicapped accessibility issues, 11 and therefore have a problem restoring it. So 12 that's why they said, "You've got to keep it 13 there, because if you move it, ABB is going to 14 say, 'Hey, you've got to do this, you've got to 15 do that.'" And I think that's why they 16 hesitated. I wasn't there, but I'm surmising 17 that's why. 18 MR. SALIMBENE: Just with regard to 19 the history behind these stop designations, the 20 Arborway advisory committee, which was a group 21 that the T organized, and which met up until 22 about 1993 on a regular basis, that group 23 originally looked at some stop designations. 24 MR. GALLAGHER: Right. 25 MR. SALIMBENE: And the list you MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 53 1 have come up with is similar to the list that 2 they had come up with. 3 MR. GALLAGHER: Okay. 4 MR. SALIMBENE: However, that list, 5 because it was discussed internally at the T, 6 was to be brought -- was to be taken to the 7 community for -- 8 MR. GALLAGHER: Well, I guess that's 9 what I'm trying to do now. 10 MR. SALIMBENE: But when we had 11 envisioned taking these proposals to the 12 community, we actually had envisioned taking 13 them in more of a -- with more time actually to 14 review them and understand them. 15 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Can I just 16 suggest -- 17 MR. SALIMBENE: So there really 18 wasn't any consensus around those stops. I 19 think there was consensus inside the T, but I 20 don't know that anybody in the community -- 21 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Could I suggest 22 that if somebody has one, that they could put it 23 in writing, if they want to think about it and 24 get it to us, so we can incorporate some of the 25 suggestions, if there's more that people would MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 54 1 like to have him look at as part of the process. 2 MR. GALLAGHER: I need to have an 3 idea of where the stops are, so that we can look 4 at the types of effects that it will have on 5 everything. And I think -- I would just like to 6 get a consensus: is this about the right number 7 of stops, or is it too few, too many? 8 MR. SALIMBENE: But doesn't that 9 depend on your ridership and the distance 10 between stops? Don't you have a standard in the 11 T that stops can't be more than, is it a quarter 12 of a mile apart? There are standards -- 13 MR. GALLAGHER: There are. 14 MR. SALIMBENE: -- that the T uses. 15 MR. GALLAGHER: We can check on 16 that. 17 MR. SALIMBENE: Transit standards 18 that you use as to how far apart transit stops 19 have to be, those are dictated by your 20 ridership. So aren't those statistics that you 21 have, where you could be telling us where the 22 stops are, rather than asking us, "Do you like 23 it at this stop?" 24 MR. GALLAGHER: Okay. So this is 25 not a consensus. I'm getting that. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 55 1 MR. AHLBERG: It's a starting 2 place. 3 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: That's all we 4 want, is a starting place. 5 MR. AHLBERG: One quick comment on 6 this stop location thing. I would hope that the 7 T and its consultants would look at the 8 ridership of the existing service and locate 9 stops where people get on and off that existing 10 service. 11 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: We'll go here, 12 and then we'll go there. 13 MS. MEG WILLISON: Meg Willison, 14 Parley Avenue. 15 I think what people are asking is 16 that the T has a scientific way of designating 17 stops. If you are creating a new line, you 18 would collect certain data to establish where 19 the best stops are. And that's what we expect 20 you to come and bring to us. 21 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Right, and 22 we'll do that. 23 MS. WILLISON: It's nice to overlay 24 what the tradition -- what the old stops were 25 compared to what the new data is bringing to MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 56 1 this plan, but I would think basically we are 2 looking to you for your expertise. 3 MR. GALLAGHER: Fine. 4 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes? 5 MR. FERRIS: Two comments, just 6 responding to your comment on South Huntington. 7 You said the T was not able to accommodate 8 handicapped access along South Huntington due to 9 the constraints, you said. I think that's 10 unfortunate. I would prefer to see more 11 frequent stops along this corridor, as we have 12 now with the bus service, as opposed to the 13 reduced service proposed on this map here. 14 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Thank you. 15 Anyone else before we move on? 16 Yes. 17 MR. ARTHUR JOHNSON: Arthur Johnson 18 from Robeson Street. 19 Because I believe that this service 20 is duplicative of the Orange Line service and 21 it's a waste of precious transportation dollars, 22 I would suggest that any stops up there -- I 23 would object to any stops that you have up there 24 that are within a quarter of a mile of any 25 Orange Line stop. It seems to me that people MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 57 1 can walk an extra quarter of a mile to the 2 Orange Line, which is already in place and 3 doesn't involve an expenditure of the amount of 4 money that's involved to replace the service. 5 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Thank you. 6 Yes, right there? 7 MS. DIANE SIMPSON: I'm Diane 8 Simpson, Chestnut Avenue, Jamaica Plain. 9 I ride the Orange Line on a regular 10 basis, and I will tell you, that thing is packed 11 at rush hour. You are just crammed in there 12 like a sardine. And I want people to keep in 13 mind that we've got several new developments 14 coming on line in Jamaica Plain, some kind of 15 big cooperative housing for the elderly that's 16 down by Forest Hills, that's going to add a lot 17 of new riders packed onto the Orange Line. 18 So bear that in mind when you say 19 that we don't need the Green Line, because I 20 think we do. 21 MR. ALAN SMITH: I think a quarter 22 of a mile is a rather arbitrary figure. I for 23 one would like to have a T stop closer than a 24 quarter of mile away. And in fact, if we were 25 to follow that standard, if one looks at cities MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 58 1 with a subway system or trolley system like many 2 cities do have in this world and in this 3 country, the stops are considerably more 4 frequent than a quarter of a mile. 5 MR. ED KOUNTZ: Ed Kountz, Dresden 6 Street. 7 All I would like to say is that I 8 concur with that. I think that it is not 9 logical to assume that this is duplicative of 10 Orange Line service, given not only the crowds 11 on the Orange Line but also the fact that people 12 like myself who live near Centre Street and who 13 also have a schedule to keep, to walk the extra 14 quarter of a mile does take time, and the more 15 impediments you put in front of people who need 16 to make that distance or wait for the train, the 17 fewer riders you are going to have. 18 MR. SALIMBENE: I just, when I said 19 a quarter of a mile, I meant that if you have a 20 quarter of mile between stops, when you get -- 21 your stop is one eighth of a mile away from you, 22 whichever direction you are going in. 23 I would also say that there are some 24 other considerations, and that is that you want 25 to speed your service as well, so you can't have MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 59 1 a stop in every driveway, for example. 2 But I want to raise -- I want to 3 address the point -- Jeff, I want to hear your 4 poem again, because I didn't get it all. I 5 thought it was great. There are people in the 6 room who disagree with one another strongly, but 7 I think we are nice enough and we are friendly 8 enough to say that we respect one another. And 9 I want to say that. But I wanted to just 10 address the point Jeff made with regard to the 11 reduction of stops, and he's not in favor of 12 that, and the point that Arthur made about the 13 cost of services. 14 I have to tell both of you, when 15 this gets to the issue of a comparison, which 16 you are refusing to do at this point, in the 17 proposal that the MBTA submitted to DEP in 18 January of 1997, the new service they are 19 proposing and I think that they favor -- which 20 is why there's a lot of distrust of what you are 21 doing tonight, and I'm using the word for the 22 first time, but there is -- in that proposal 23 they proposed a reduction in stops for the new 24 bus service they are proposing. And that new 25 bus service is going to cost a lot of money MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 60 1 because those articulated vehicles don't exist, 2 no one is manufacturing them, and they are 3 recommending that they are going to cost 4 anywhere between -- 5 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Mr. Salimbene, 6 I don't want to interrupt you, but if we are 7 going -- 8 MR. SALIMBENE: That is exactly the 9 point with regard to the comparison. If you are 10 talking only about the one option, 11 you leave people with the view that there are 12 not tradeoffs all along the line on this, people 13 are getting the wrong opinion of these options. 14 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: And I agree 15 with that. But again, I need a starting point, 16 and I just hope that you can bear with me. I 17 just need to give some definition as to what we 18 want to see come back. 19 Believe me, if DEP gives me an 20 opportunity to do the alternative, we will do 21 that. But I just want to know where we are 22 starting from, what are we going to compare? 23 And if we can stay on this -- because they are 24 going to throw me out of here at eight o'clock. 25 I don't want everybody to say, "whatever MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 61 1 happened --" 2 MR. MOLONEY: Just quickly on this, 3 people who have looked at this kind of thing in 4 restoration, I think, recognize the basic 5 principle that in order to have an up-to-date, 6 speedy service, a reduction in the number of 7 stops along the line when compared to 1985 is 8 essential, because you have to balance the 9 loading zones, and you have to balance this, 10 that and the other thing. 11 But that's just a basic principle 12 that we could reach agreement on. Don't come to 13 us, don't come to us and say at a meeting, after 14 about 45 minutes of discussion, "You people 15 picked these stops," and then build the MBTA and 16 tell us those were the stops. 17 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: No, we're not 18 going to do that. 19 MR. MOLONEY: You are the people 20 with the expertise. The principals of the 21 community will say, "It's fine with us to reduce 22 the number," but the actual number of stops has 23 to depend on usage and population trends and 24 what the community is. 25 We are not going to get trapped -- MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 62 1 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I agree. We 2 are not going to do that. 3 MR. MOLONEY: -- by these meetings 4 where you people come without the agenda, and 5 you have a bunch of people in the room and you 6 try to position us on these things. 7 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: We're not 8 trying to position you. I'm sorry if you feel 9 that way, but we're really not. 10 MR. MOLONEY: Well, if you don't 11 have a written agenda, sir -- 12 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I thought that 13 I could tell you what the agenda was. 14 Mr. Ferris? 15 MR. FERRIS: It might be helpful for 16 this discussion if we had a scale of miles on 17 this map. I don't know if anybody can come up 18 with -- 19 MR. GALLAGHER: I believe the 20 corridor from Heath Street down to Forest Hills 21 is about two miles. 22 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Any other 23 comments? 24 MR. FERRIS: Two miles? 25 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Any other MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 63 1 comments on the -- 2 MR. FERRIS: So it would be, a 3 quarter of a mile would be about one and a 4 quarter inches. 5 MS. CAROLYN MANSON: My name is 6 Carolyn Manson, and I ride the 39 bus regularly, 7 and I think there's lots too many stops. It's 8 stopping all the time. So as far as I'm 9 concerned, they can lengthen them out a little 10 bit. 11 And I definitely agree we need this 12 service. I could walk to the Orange Line, it 13 would be another 20 minutes -- excuse me -- 14 about another 12 minutes to the Orange Line. 15 When I get downtown, it's another 12 minutes the 16 other way. I work at Copley, so this is the 17 best line. I save 20 minutes overall. 18 And I really want it underground. I 19 want it to go right into Copley. I wait 20 sometimes for the D line. It's a much better 21 ride from the D line. You're there, you can 22 expand those stations. I think this is really 23 feasible. 24 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Thank you. 25 What I would like to do is get away MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 64 1 from the stations per se and go on to the next 2 issue. 3 MR. GALLAGHER: First of all, as you 4 see in your handout -- and I won't spend any 5 time on it -- these are pictures we took 6 recently of South Huntington, Centre and South 7 Street. And you can see the character of South 8 Huntington. Obviously it was just repaved. 9 It's not striped yet. It's much wider than 10 Centre and South Street. And all these pictures 11 tend to do is just kind of give you the 12 character of the street, and I don't think 13 anybody can argue with that. 14 MR. MOLONEY: I think we can. I 15 think we can argue with the selection of these 16 photographs. What you have done in those 17 photographs is taken a picture of the brand new 18 bituminous at the top of the track. 19 MR. GALLAGHER: Right. 20 MR. MOLONEY: At a period of time 21 when there's no traffic there. And then you've 22 selected a time where there's all sorts of 23 traffic violations, with the double parking and 24 whatnot there. Most of the time that street is 25 as empty as the one you showed on South MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 65 1 Huntington. And then to come up with -- 2 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Okay. I won't 3 argue with you. 4 MR. MOLONEY: They are not 5 representative, sir, they are not representative 6 of actual conditions. 7 MR. GALLAGHER: All right. We will 8 drop that subject. 9 MR. MOLONEY: And don't try and 10 represent that they are. 11 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Let's look at 12 the concepts that he's got. 13 MR. GALLAGHER: Three things that we 14 were asked to look at. Number one, restore the 15 service the way it was. This is a cross section 16 of Centre Street, which is 42 -- but it's very 17 similar to South Street. And what we have is 42 18 feet from curb to curb. Okay? The existing 19 trolley used to run down the middle of the 20 street, two rails, five feet apart from the 21 center line. 22 The way it used to run, where it 23 would reach a stop, they would just let people 24 out onto the street. This, by the ABB, the 25 architectural board, is against the rules. We MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 66 1 can't restore it like this. We have to provide 2 access for a wheelchair at every one of these 3 stops for handicapped people. So that's the 4 rules we are working under, and we have -- 5 that's not a choice. We have to do that. 6 So what we are looking at is, one 7 way to do that is to move the service over to 8 the sidewalk. Well, if you do that, obviously 9 you wipe out all the parking, which is shown -- 10 something like that. And I don't think that 11 that's anything acceptable. 12 Just hear me out. 13 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: And then you 14 can talk. 15 MR. GALLAGHER: The second way to do 16 it is to, at selected stations we can bring out 17 the curb, so that we can provide a platform. 18 The existing curb is this dashed line. And 19 again, this is on your handouts. But what we 20 would do is we would bring out the curb so we 21 can meet the light rail vehicle. 22 We would also have to move the light 23 rail vehicle closer, so that -- you have about a 24 five-inch gap in between the door and the 25 platform. We would have to build up this MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 67 1 sidewalk to about eight inches so that it could 2 accommodate a wheelchair. This is one way of 3 doing it. One thing that this does, it doesn't 4 eliminate all of the parking, but it does 5 eliminate the parking where the platform 6 exists. So that, you have to realize. 7 Those are basically the three 8 alternatives. One of them isn't an 9 alternative. And it's either, the basics are 10 either to bring the sidewalk out or go to the 11 sidewalk. 12 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Before I open 13 it up to questions, I just want to open up 14 another hybrid, if you want to call it that. 15 And I know that there was some suggestion, I 16 think Mr. Salimbene mentioned, about something 17 in the middle. Obviously on South Street or 18 something like that, it's too narrow. Perhaps 19 something in the middle would be more 20 appropriate for South Huntington, where it's 21 wider. So maybe that's a hybrid. 22 But what we need from you at this 23 point, frankly, is for you to give us some 24 feedback about the kind of ideas. Is the 25 parking totally ridiculous, to go down that MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 68 1 way? Is the bulb-out more appropriate? Do we 2 have a hybrid where we have it in the middle on 3 the wider streets and on the side on the smaller 4 streets? 5 I really need some feedback so that 6 we can give him the direction to go out and 7 design what we would like to do as the 8 alternative. 9 You have your hand up. 10 MR. Z: My name is George Z, and I 11 live on Chestnut Ave. 12 Did you forget that there is no 13 parking at a bus stop? It is illegal to park at 14 a bus stop. So the only parking you eliminate 15 would be illegal parking. There's already no 16 parking at a bus stop. So by having the 17 sidewalk come out, it's just taking the part 18 that people aren't supposed to park anyway, so 19 there's no loss of parking space, only loss of 20 illegal parking space. 21 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: That's a good 22 observation. 23 MR. Z: I mean, it's already in the 24 law, the Mass. state law, that you are not 25 supposed to pass a bus or trolley that people MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 69 1 are embarking on, in any way, even if it was in 2 the middle of the street. So there's no such 3 thing as we are losing parking, and I think 4 that's the wrong point to make. 5 MR. GALLAGHER: We haven't 6 evaluated this. All we are saying, if we bring 7 out the sidewalk in order to -- 8 MR. Z: You only have to bring out 9 the sidewalks to the point where people are 10 embarking. And as far as I know, when you pay 11 to get in, you only are embarking in the front 12 car, or maybe -- 13 MR. GALLAGHER: You have to make it 14 handicapped-accessible. 15 MR. Z: And you can make it 16 handicapped-accessible without taking any 17 parking, legal parking, away. 18 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: It is going to 19 be difficult, depending on how long the platform 20 has to be. And we are going to take a look at 21 that. 22 MR. MOLONEY: That's one of the 23 issues, and why that drawing that's up there is 24 misleading. It may be that you have to have a 25 wheelchair. Let's accept that that's a premise, MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 70 1 at least for this debate. But there are double 2 cars. If you don't have to have a platform that 3 goes from beyond the front end of the first one 4 to beyond the back end of the second one -- and 5 it may be entirely possible, I think most of us 6 feel, to be able to service one of the two cars 7 from the neck down, or whatever, that would 8 accommodate a movement of a wheelchair in the 9 side rear door on -- you know, on the side, 10 about halfway through that car, and therefore 11 you have a relatively small thing. 12 But to show this broad boulevard of 13 increasing sidewalk is very misleading. It's a 14 matter of optimizing -- 15 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Well, we will 16 look at that. 17 MR. GALLAGHER: If I could just 18 point out a couple of things. All of the 19 sidewalks along the whole corridor are eight 20 feet, which is a fairly narrow sidewalk by urban 21 standards. I think everybody will agree with 22 that. Where you have a light rail stop, you 23 need to have enough maneuvering room so that you 24 can load both cars. You are going to have two- 25 car trains, because they are going to be into MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 71 1 the Green Line system. Okay? So that you need 2 to be able to accommodate getting people on for 3 this length. This is T standards. 4 There are also, we have to follow 5 also the handicapped-accessible standards, by 6 law. 7 MR. MOLONEY: The T has already 8 conceded that it is not set in place, that it is 9 a matter of balancing the various interests. 10 What may be an urban standard for Detroit or 11 Phoenix can't be an urban standard for Jamaica 12 Plain, that's been here three times as long. 13 It's a matter of balancing, and the T admits 14 that. 15 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Well, we'll 16 look into it. 17 Yes? 18 MR. KURLAND: Might I suggest that 19 the ADA specifically allows in a multicar train 20 that one car be accessible. 21 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: We will look 22 into it. 23 Mr. Ferris? 24 MR. FERRIS: Yes. Let's see. What 25 is the distance required for the rail to the MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 72 1 curb in this type of train? 2 MR. GALLAGHER: It's about, from the 3 center of the tracks to the edge of the curb, 4 it's about four feet nine inches, I believe. 5 MR. FERRIS: From the center of a 6 single rail? 7 MR. GALLAGHER: Center of -- between 8 the two rails. 9 MR. FERRIS: No, I wanted the 10 distance from the rail itself to the curb. 11 MR. GALLAGHER: So you could 12 subtract out two and a half feet, I guess, 13 something like that. 14 MR. FERRIS: So that was four foot 15 nine minus two and a half feet. That's two foot 16 three inches? 17 MR. GALLAGHER: Yes, I guess. 18 MR. FERRIS: Okay. What I want to 19 speak about here is the impact this has on 20 bicycles as part of the mixed traffic referred 21 to in your scope here, that needs to fit with 22 this scenario. Two foot three inches does not 23 provide room for a bicycle to travel between the 24 rail and the curb. 25 You might say, "Well, why is that? MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 73 1 A bike tire is pretty skinny." What you would 2 have to take into account is if you are going to 3 have a high curb, and it's not the distance of 4 just the tires, but you need the distance of the 5 pedal to be free and clear of the curb. I 6 believe the standard, the national standard for 7 bike lanes, is roughly four to five feet clear 8 from the curb to a bike lane line. And that's 9 where you even don't have a hazard such as a 10 rail, which would be to the left side of the 11 bicycle. 12 So clearly for something -- to do 13 any of these scenarios where you want to make 14 your rail be close enough to the curb to be 15 handicapped-accessible, you have got a 16 significant impact on a bicycle in the street. 17 Now, what this means then is that a 18 bicycle has to be out up the center of the rail, 19 more in the middle of the street, meaning more 20 of an obstruction to the flow of traffic. 21 Whether there's a trolley there or not, any time 22 a cyclist has to pass a trolley stop, not only 23 are they going to be in the middle of the 24 street, but they are going to have to maneuver 25 through tracks at each end, which is a major, MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 74 1 major hazard to cyclists. 2 And I would weigh heavily against 3 the great danger this poses to cyclists in 4 trying to make any of this work. Thank you. 5 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes, sir. 6 MR. TOM CHILD: My name is Tom 7 Child. 8 I understand that there's a bike 9 path down the Emerald Necklace and on several 10 side streets. I don't think that we must make 11 bicycles an impediment to restoring service to 12 the line, whereas there are a number of 13 alternatives for the bicycles, where there are 14 very few alternatives for trains. 15 FROM THE FLOOR: My understanding is 16 that bicycles must conform to the same standards 17 as a vehicle. You can't pass a trolley or a 18 bus. 19 MR. FERRIS: I'm talking just 20 passing the trolley stop. Just passing the stop 21 will create a hazard. 22 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Okay. We have 23 recorded both comments. 24 Yes, ma'am? 25 MS. PULTINAS: Alison Pultinas from MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 75 1 Lawn Street in Mission Hill. 2 Bicyclists have to obey the law, the 3 same laws that the cars do. So the issue of 4 these loading zones for the handicapped, the 5 position of where the wheelchair is going to be 6 on the car is very important. And we don't have 7 that information so far, but these drawings, as 8 the other gentleman pointed out, are very 9 misleading. You don't need that whole length. 10 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: We are going to 11 look into the feasibility. 12 Yes, sir, back there, please? 13 MR. KOUNTZ: I'd just like to say 14 that although the national standard for bike 15 lanes may be five feet, I don't see any bike 16 lanes in Boston that extend out five feet. 17 I also think it might be possible to 18 extend the bike lane into the curb, where the 19 curb is extended out for the trolley. I don't 20 know whether that would work, but I believe 21 there are alternatives that make sense for 22 bicyclists and transit users that would be a 23 significant improvement over the 39 bus system. 24 As a bus rider, I have to say that 25 it depends on the definition of substitute, but MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 76 1 I would hope that a substitute, if it's light 2 rail, would be more efficient, cleaner and more 3 reliable than the 39. That's the only way you 4 will get people out of their cars and back into 5 transit. 6 MR. NATHAN: Could you clarify what 7 the assumption here is as far as the physical 8 nature of the stops, when you are talking about 9 -- you call them bulb-outs. I have heard them 10 called buildouts, these elongated curbs. 11 MR. GALLAGHER: Right. As I said, 12 the existing sidewalks right now are eight feet. 13 MR. NATHAN: I meant the elevation. 14 That's what I'm talking about. Are we talking 15 about ramped-up curbs or -- 16 MR. GALLAGHER: You are talking 17 about vertical curbs, eight inches high. 18 MR. NATHAN: Asphalt? 19 MR. GALLAGHER: No, granite, 20 probably, by city standards. So the sidewalk in 21 the area of the handicapped entrance to the 22 vehicle would be eight inches high. The 23 standard light rail vehicle with the low floor 24 is 14 inches off the rail. So you have got to 25 make up the rest of it with a plate that comes MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 77 1 out of the low floor, and this is how the 2 standard does it. 3 MR. NATHAN: Eight inches in height 4 is the standard? 5 MR. GALLAGHER: Yes. 6 MR. KYPER: This is John Kyper, 7 Centre Street, Fort Hill. 8 One thing that you have not 9 discussed as an alternative is, although you 10 mentioned it in the written portion, is 11 pedestrian islands, you know, for people waiting 12 to load the cars, particularly on the sections 13 where the street is wide enough, like South 14 Huntington Avenue. 15 MR. GALLAGHER: Right. I think we 16 will look at that. 17 MR. KYPER: A year ago I was in 18 several of the meetings in the back of the hill 19 where the reconstruction is now being completed 20 on the upper portion of South Huntington 21 Avenue. And I brought up that subject then, and 22 the planner said, "Well, we can't do that 23 because it will take away parking," you know, 24 because -- and somebody else pointed out, "Well, 25 that's a no parking zone already." MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 78 1 I have lived in other cities. I 2 have -- Church Street in San Francisco is a 3 street that I find very comparable to South 4 Huntington and Centre Streets here in Jamaica 5 Plain. It is relatively narrow. It does have, 6 you know, streetcar tracks, and also has a very 7 busy bus line in much of that portion. 8 And they do employ pedestrian 9 islands there that -- and they, you know, have a 10 railing on the side where the traffic goes by, 11 because traffic goes by on both sides. The side 12 where -- in some of the locations where the 13 light rail vehicle goes, there's mixed traffic. 14 And then on the outside there's a line for 15 traffic, as well as a trackless trolley in one 16 particular location. 17 And this, as I say, is a street 18 that's about the width of Centre Street, right 19 outside the door here. 20 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Okay. 21 MR. Z: I'm George Z again. 22 Can you look at the purple line 23 solution to the -- 24 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: The purple 25 line? MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 79 1 MR. Z: The purple line is the 2 commuter rail. Look at their solution to the 3 handicapped accessibility, and you will find 4 that the commuter trains are considerably longer 5 than any bus, and they have at their stations 6 that are currently in use, one section, mini -- 7 they have lifts or a raised platform in one 8 section. And that seems to meet the standard. 9 And that's what I would like you to look at, so 10 that we are not hog-tied by having the whole 11 length of the cutout handicapped-accessible. 12 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Well, we can 13 look into that, but I know a lot of times when 14 they make us do the new stations, they want an 15 eight hundred foot platform, like they did up in 16 Union Station in Worcester, when they held up 17 the whole opening. But we can definitely look 18 into it. 19 Yes, back there? 20 MR. JOHN DEACON: My name is John 21 Deacon. Just a few points. 22 First of all, in terms of running -- 23 restoring the Green Line Arborway service, the 24 consultant mentioned something that -- just put 25 it back. But that was never the intent, and MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 80 1 that certainly wasn't the intent of the 1987 2 study or the studies that came after, to just 3 put the Arborway line back the way it was. 4 There was recognition that improvements had to 5 be made. That was preADA, but even at that 6 point it was acknowledged that the service had 7 to be accessible to everyone else, even though 8 it was preADA. 9 So what we need from you, what needs 10 to be done, and unfortunately I don't think this 11 process is going to do it, what needs to be done 12 is the industry, the entire transit industry in 13 the United States, you have to go and find out 14 what are considered standards by the transit 15 systems all throughout the country, many of who 16 have or are planning light rail or building 17 light rail systems, and some of them old, that 18 have to be brought up to ADA standards. You 19 can't just take the MBTA's word that it is the 20 expert. It's not. 21 Tom Palmer has written a couple of 22 articles in the Globe over the past couple of 23 days questioning some of the decisions the 24 construction director at the MBTA has made, and 25 it's beginning -- so the T may not even be an MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 81 1 expert on its own turf. 2 So when the consultant gets up there 3 and talks about standards, and we have to do 4 this and that we have to do that, we want to 5 find out what industry standards are throughout 6 the country, how are they making light rail work 7 in Portland, Oregon? How are they retrofitting 8 the streetcar and subway system very similar to 9 ours in Philadelphia, so that it will be ADA- 10 compliant? How are new light rail systems being 11 built? How are Heritage streetcars being built? 12 There's a whole bunch of stuff going 13 on throughout the country, and the T is not 14 telling you that. And without that information, 15 you cannot make a good decision based on that 16 information. 17 The other thing is, if you are 18 talking about parking supply, you have to talk 19 about the impact on bus stops with 64 20 articulated vehicles. They need more room. So 21 if you are not going to have bus stops where the 22 buses are able to pull off to the side, you are 23 going to eliminate even more parking. Jamaica 24 Plain Center, where you have heavy traffic 25 flows, you are going to end up with two 64 buses MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 82 1 right after another. So you really have to 2 design a bus stop that will accommodate two 64 3 buses pulling over to the side. Otherwise why 4 bother? So when you balance that off against 5 the impact of the light rail vehicles, then you 6 have another issue. 7 The other issue is pollution. The 8 compressed natural gas buses have a different 9 pollution impact than diesel buses, but in 10 heavily congested, densely populated areas, you 11 want to eliminate internal combustion engines as 12 much as possible, and that calls for electric 13 traction, which is what you get from a light 14 rail system. 15 There are a whole bunch of things 16 that have to be looked at, but the most 17 important is to judge what the industry is 18 doing, not what the MBTA is telling you or the 19 City of Boston may be telling you, but to see 20 what other cities and transit authorities are 21 doing. 22 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Thank you. 23 MR. KARL SMITH: Karl Smith from 24 Mission Hill, bicyclist, T rider and occasional 25 car driver. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 83 1 This whole section that we are 2 looking at, I'm just wondering if the T or your 3 consultant has looked at the trackless trolley 4 as an alternative, or will you look at the 5 trackless trolley as an alternative? 6 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: The scope of 7 this project was not to do that, up to this 8 point. However, if DEP clarifies, and there is 9 an alternative, that may be one of the 10 alternatives. I'm not sure it would be a public 11 process where we would talk about it. That 12 could be the case, depending on how things 13 evolve from here. 14 MR. KARL SMITH: I'm just throwing 15 that out for a couple of reasons. I heard 16 people say earlier that the compressed natural 17 gas bus is something that doesn't exist yet. Or 18 is there something they are still working on? 19 There is a design, but you do -- the T does have 20 trackless trolleys running in Watertown and 21 Cambridge, and has, I assume, the support 22 services to keep those running. 23 And secondly, I have been in many of 24 the cities that people have alluded to. They 25 have trolleys, light rail. Like in Baltimore, MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 84 1 where my mother lives, there's light rail that 2 does run through the downtown area that mixes 3 with traffic, but it's not for the length that 4 we are talking about here. So I would see that 5 the trolleys are running into problems with the 6 amount of traffic that's on the street. So 7 maybe a trackless trolley would be one 8 alternative. 9 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Thank you. 10 Yes? 11 MR. CHILD: I have a question about 12 between Brigham Circle and Heath Street, where 13 the trolley stops in the middle of the street. 14 There's no parking on the side of the street at 15 that point. Is that correct? 16 MR. GALLAGHER: Yes. 17 MR. CHILD: So assuming that the 18 train -- from Brigham Circle to the Heath Street 19 where the trolley stops, there is no parking on 20 the curb, so that wherever these stops are on 21 the restored line, whether they are in the 22 middle of the street or on the side, those 23 parking spaces are going to be lost if we keep 24 the current standards of how the train stops. 25 So if they are going to lose the MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 85 1 space anyway, why not have them build the 2 platform in those missing spaces so that it's 3 more consistent with the length of the trolley, 4 whatever, and a better appearance I think the 5 city would have. And of course, less of a 6 chance that someone would illegally park on a 7 curb, as opposed to a space. 8 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Okay. Anything 9 else? 10 I guess from here, I think there's 11 the -- 12 FROM THE FLOOR: Well, it's a 13 question about -- from here. We have 30 minutes 14 left, and on those feasibility issues that you 15 -- 16 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I was just 17 going to ask him to do that, but I wanted to 18 preface it by saying the following. Clearly, 19 some would like clarified the DEP issue, and we 20 will so. But if DEP says we are on the right 21 track, the kind of things that they will be 22 looking at, based on what we heard tonight, are 23 the impacts engineeringly, economically and 24 environmentally. And I would at least like to 25 go through those. We may not do those, MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 86 1 depending on what DEP gives us as far as 2 direction, but these are the kinds of issues 3 that Bill will be looking at as part of the 4 analysis. 5 MR. GALLAGHER: Okay. First of all, 6 on the engineering issues, we have to meet all 7 of the ADA requirements. That's a given. 8 There's a ruling by the architectural access 9 board. This will dictate the height of the 10 platform, which we are saying right now looks 11 like it's going to be about eight inches above 12 the pavement. 13 We will look into the use of plates 14 to limit the height of platforms, but we do have 15 the specification for the light rail vehicle 16 that the T currently has and would be using on 17 this line, and I think we are restricted by what 18 that can do. But again, this meets that. 19 We will look at island platforms on 20 South Huntington where we have room, but we also 21 have to make sure that they are handicapped- 22 accessible. And other issues: safety, snow, 23 snow-plowing ability, maintenance. But we will 24 look at them to see if they might make some 25 sense. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 87 1 If we are adding the service back, 2 we need to look if there's additional space 3 needed at the new maintenance facility down at 4 the Arborway yards. And those are the 5 engineering issues. 6 Economic, if there is loss of 7 parking, which we will determine as part of the 8 study, if we haven't determined it yet, that's 9 an economic issue. Impacts on loading or 10 unloading at commercial establishments. I think 11 you have all observed delivery trucks serving 12 the Store 24, as an example, they need to have 13 deliveries made. They don't have access to any 14 other place but the front of their stores. But 15 that could be an impact. We don't know if it's 16 a problem, but it could be an impact. And the 17 actual cost of providing the service needs to be 18 looked at as an economic feasibility issue. 19 The environmental issues are the 20 effects on vehicle traffic. If you have the 21 light rail vehicle and vehicular traffic sharing 22 the same lane, obviously it's going to have an 23 effect on traffic. We need to look at what it 24 does to the level of service of both the light 25 rail system beyond this corridor as well as what MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 88 1 it does to the traffic in the area, in the study 2 area. 3 Potential delays for emergency 4 response vehicles. Dennis mentioned that the T 5 has received two letters, both from the police 6 commissioner and I believe the fire chief, 7 stating that when the service was operating, 8 that there were problems with emergency response 9 vehicles getting around the light rail when it 10 was in service. We need to look at that to see 11 if it is an issue. 12 And also, I alluded to, we need to 13 see what the effect would be on the current 14 Green Line service if we did restore this thing. 15 Yes? 16 MR. MARTIN FRANCIS: Martin Francis, 17 Westchester Road. 18 A few issues: Additional 19 maintenance facilities required. That's a smoke 20 screen. Additional to what? The buses? If you 21 have buses, you have facilities to maintain 22 them, and if you have streetcars. So it's a 23 wash, as far as I am concerned. 24 Jumping down to the letters from the 25 police commissioner and the fire commissioner, I MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 89 1 drove the streetcars from 1969 until the day 2 they stopped. I don't recall any situations 3 where the streetcars caused a problem for the 4 emergency vehicles more so than any bus. So if 5 it's possible, could you bring the copy of those 6 letters and put them in the next packet? 7 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes. 8 MR. FRANCIS: And did they in fact 9 say in the letter that the streetcars would 10 cause an additional problem, or a problem? 11 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I don't have 12 the letter right here to read it to you, but we 13 will include it, yes. 14 MR. FRANCIS: Thank you. 15 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes? Right 16 there. 17 MS. SIMPSON: The problem that I 18 have with this is that under economic, you are 19 listing all negative things, loss of this, 20 impact on that, cost of that. What about the 21 positive economic impact from tourists coming 22 downtown to spend money in Jamaica Plain? What 23 about the positive economic impact of getting 24 the cars off the street and freeing up the roads 25 so the emergency vehicles can get through? MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 90 1 That's what's preventing the emergency 2 vehicles. They are all clogged with 3 automobiles. 4 So I have a major objection to 5 this. Under economic, you are not listing any 6 of the positive economics of returning the Green 7 Line service. 8 FROM THE FLOOR: Is there an answer 9 to that, a response to that? 10 MR. GALLAGHER: No, you are right. 11 MR. KURLAND: You will do that. 12 Right? That will be part of your charge, to 13 list those? 14 MR. GALLAGHER: I don't see why 15 not. 16 MS. MANSON: As a bus rider, these 17 two things. When I take the bus home, I get off 18 on Centre Street, and I go in the shops. When I 19 used to drive to work, I came home. You know 20 what, I never went to Centre Street, I never 21 bought a thing on Centre Street. I would get in 22 my car and I would go to the mall. And, you 23 know, I would add to the traffic or whatever. 24 But because I get off on Centre Street, I've 25 been buying stuff. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 91 1 Now, anybody on Centre Street that 2 runs a business, they compete with the malls. 3 They just can't do it. They live off of people 4 like me that get off the trolley and pick up 5 some stuff and go home. 6 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes? 7 MS. WEPSIC: I would like you to 8 consider the effect of the service on the 9 economic vitality of downtown Boston. I know me 10 and many others go downtown to shop. Now, with 11 the bus and the transfer at Copley, we just 12 don't go downtown the way we used to. So please 13 add that in. 14 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes, Mr. 15 Salimbene? 16 MR. SALIMBENE: Thank you, Mr. 17 DiZoglio. 18 My problem with the feasibility 19 issues is this. And I think, Bill, I may have 20 mentioned it to you in the past, what you are 21 doing by listing out these feasibility issues is 22 listing the issues and the impact in this 23 neighborhood. The DEP's charge was very clear, 24 that the Arborway corridor runs from Forest 25 Hills to Park Street. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 92 1 So my -- looking at this list, for 2 example, under economic, first of all I think 3 it's -- the wording is very telling. Instead of 4 "impact on parking," it's "loss of parking." 5 You are already making the assumption there's a 6 loss in parking. Why is that? Because your 7 institutional mentality at the MBTA is that this 8 line shouldn't be restored, and one of the 9 reasons is loss of parking. And that's what you 10 really believe. Okay? Without having studied 11 it. And it comes out on this. 12 But I want to add something. If you 13 look at the whole corridor, and you take buses 14 off the route, how many parking spaces does the 15 city of Boston pick up on Huntington Avenue, on 16 Boylston Street, on Stuart Street, as a result 17 of the elimination of those bus stops? 18 Cost of providing the service. All 19 service costs, and no one in this room should 20 expect that light rail is going to cost less 21 than anything else. But you don't determine 22 whether or not Beacon Street has a car line that 23 continues to run because you could provide bus 24 service to Beacon Street for less money. Of 25 course the cost of light rail is going to be MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 93 1 more. And if this becomes a criterion for 2 making the decision between light rail and bus, 3 you might just as well close all of the Green 4 Line and run buses throughout the city. 5 Effect on vehicular traffic, level 6 of service. Think of the bus rider who gets on 7 your preferred alternative -- and it is your 8 preferred alternative, and that's what you want 9 to see established, this bus service that you 10 presented to DEP last year. You have a rider on 11 that 39 bus. What's the impact on that rider, 12 once that bus gets to Brigham Circle, and that 13 rider is going to Northeastern, or that rider is 14 going to Arlington Street in the Back Bay, and 15 that bus is stuck in traffic during rush hour 16 all the way along that route? Whereas the 17 streetcar is on its median, and it's in the 18 subway, and it doesn't have a problem there. 19 There's nothing here -- you see, 20 this is a biased presentation of issues. The 21 DEP has told us that this is one line from 22 Forest Hills to Park Street, and if you are 23 going to do a feasibility of the line, you have 24 to do a feasibility of the line, not just these 25 blocks. There are problems, but this has never MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 94 1 been a black and white issue. This is a gray 2 issue. There are good things and bad things. 3 The point is that you establish your 4 baseline of the study by looking at the whole 5 line and studying all of the issues on that 6 line. This doesn't do that. 7 MR. GALLAGHER: Could I just 8 respond? First of all, the only thing that's 9 being restored is really from Heath Street down 10 to Forest Hills. Right? The rest of it is 11 there, so -- 12 MR. SALIMBENE: But are you saying 13 -- 14 MR. GALLAGHER: We are looking at 15 the physical effects of restoring the line. 16 Okay? I'm not saying that there's going to be 17 loss of parking. We haven't studied that yet. 18 MR. SALIMBENE: Well, you are saying 19 that. 20 MR. GALLAGHER: I'm looking at it. 21 FROM THE FLOOR: "Parking concerns" 22 would be a neutral statement. 23 MR. SALIMBENE: But surely you 24 cannot say to us that the only impact of 25 restoring light rail is an impact in this MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 95 1 community. That's not true. If you are going 2 to study the impact of restoration, the impact 3 of restoration is along the whole line. You 4 will gain parking on lower Huntington Avenue, 5 and that will be an impact of restoration. But 6 if you only study the impact here, then you 7 don't pick up the impact in other 8 neighborhoods. 9 There are lots of impacts. The 10 people -- and I don't know whether Shirley was 11 going to address this or not -- but the Back Bay 12 Neighborhood Association in the Back Bay is very 13 concerned about the congestion and the pollution 14 caused by buses on Boylston Street around the 15 public library. They would like to see those 16 400 daily buses -- I am speaking for them, but I 17 spoke to them on this already -- they would like 18 to discuss with you the possibility of removing 19 all those buses from the Back Bay. That's a 20 positive impact on the quality of life in this 21 city, and it's not accounted for in what you are 22 proposing. 23 MR. KURLAND: And you have been 24 directed to do that. 25 MS. ELIZABETH FIXLER: Elizabeth MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 96 1 Fixler. 2 One, on the handicapped, it's 3 certainly a lot easier to get on, once -- to get 4 on a trolley and get wherever you're going. It 5 is not as easy to get on a bus, get transferred 6 off of a bus, get from a bus down into the 7 subway system. Do it once, and be kind. 8 The second element, and the elderly 9 are greatly affected by this, we have seen 10 numerous articles on these little bus things 11 that are supposed to deliver people. They 12 average between two to five hours late. This is 13 very -- The Ride. It is inhuman. 14 And I know the concern of the mayor 15 for the elderly. The elderly are comfortable 16 and know the T system and ride it. It enhances 17 the whole quality of their life. They are able 18 to visit friends, visit relatives, and not have 19 to drive. They can go to the hospitals, which 20 are all along the Green Line. They are not on 21 the Orange Line. So the whole quality of life 22 for the elderly and those of us approaching that 23 are affected. It's a very definite impact. 24 It is free aboveground coming home. 25 Now, if you can have a free ride going to MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 97 1 Brookline, going out and going to Newton, we 2 would like that privilege. As a merchant in the 3 community, people used to stop, when there was 4 an A&P, they would pick up a few groceries, 5 they'd get back on for free. They'd stop at the 6 drugstore, then they'd come in my store and shop 7 because they were waiting for their honey to 8 come and meet them. And they would stay in the 9 downtown, and they would shop some more. 10 In our area we have 22, 11 approximately 22 parking spaces for twelve 12 businesses. In that grouping we have 13 approximately a ten thousand membership for the 14 food coop. This is a vital element. It is the 15 only -- one of the only food markets in our 16 area. The membership and the community cannot 17 get to that store with any ease with 22 parking 18 spaces. 19 The trolleys bring something like a 20 quarter of a million people in and out of 21 Coolidge Corner every day. My business and 22 every business in Jamaica Plain would be 23 tremendously enhanced by having a quarter of a 24 million people be able to come through, not in 25 cars. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 98 1 Okay. 2 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Ms. Kressel, 3 then Mr. Kurland, and then Mr. Deacon. 4 MS. SHIRLEY KRESSEL: Shirley 5 Kressel, for the Alliance of Boston 6 Neighborhoods, and I'm also directly speaking 7 for the Neighborhood Association of the Back 8 Bay. And I've also been asked to put in the 9 same comments for the Saint Botolph Citizens 10 Committee. 11 Franklyn Salimbene did represent 12 accurately our interest in this. Mass transit 13 is not something that happens on a few streets. 14 Mass transit is a web, it's a system, it's a 15 network, and anything you do on a piece of it 16 has ripple effects throughout the whole system. 17 The ridership on transit is actually 18 affected by the addition of rail versus bus. 19 There are more people who will make trips and 20 who will get out of their cars if it's a train 21 than if it's a bus, and that's known. So you 22 need to put into your feasibility issues a plus 23 column that says that people will get out of 24 their cars, they will actually attract 25 ridership. You will attract businesses along MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 99 1 the way. And that the impacts of the change in 2 the ridership pattern are going to echo through 3 the whole system from one end of the line all 4 the way to the other, and to connections that 5 people make from that line. 6 Both of those neighborhood 7 associations will be writing letters and will be 8 very closely involved in this. 9 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Mr. Kurland? 10 MR. KOUNTZ: It's Mr. Kountz. 11 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Oh, I'm sorry. 12 Mr. KOUNTZ: No problem. 13 I would just like to make one 14 point. If by effect on vehicular traffic you 15 are referring to the impact on cars that have to 16 maneuver around trolleys -- is that correct? 17 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Right. 18 MR. KOUNTZ: I would like to add 19 another point which I think is equally feasible, 20 on which you admitted is a fairly negative 21 approach on feasibility. What about the effect 22 on vehicular traffic of actually giving people a 23 reasonable alternative to get out of their 24 cars? Or a corollary, what about the effect on 25 pedestrian traffic? MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 100 1 Personally as a pedestrian and a 2 mass transit rider, I am unhappy and not willing 3 to continue to be a second-class citizen in 4 Jamaica Plain due to the lack of facilities for 5 pedestrians, and due to what is essentially a 6 lack of opportunity moving from mass transit 7 onto the streets. I don't like being close to 8 being run down by cars. 9 I think the options you discussed, 10 which are not mentioned up there, would help 11 improve the quality of my life and others in a 12 similar position. I think as a result, in 13 discussing it, you have to look at both sides. 14 That's what we need to do. 15 This is more than just one versus 16 the other. This is about creating a better 17 community for pedestrians in Jamaica Plain. And 18 luckily we are a community where we can discuss 19 this, and our options. So let's have the 20 options, both positive and negative, displayed 21 together. 22 MR. DEACON: Again, industry 23 standard. In terms of public safety, over the 24 years I have done a lot of reading on light rail 25 systems. And there's a ton of material out MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 101 1 there. If you go down to the state transit 2 library, you will find shelves, periodicals and 3 Web pages for all different transit authorities, 4 renovating light rail lines. 5 I have never heard the issue of 6 public safety brought up, only in terms of, if 7 you are going to establish something new, 8 whether it be a light rail line, a subway line, 9 commuter line, you actually have to go down and 10 acquaint the public safety people with the 11 operating characteristics of that particular 12 line. 13 So you have to tell them, if you are 14 building a system with a third rail, that the 15 third rail is energized at a certain time, that 16 it's whatever voltage it is, that if there's a 17 fire, here's how you respond to that fire. But 18 I have never, in all of the material I have read 19 on light rail development and transit 20 development, I have never seen any papers, 21 articles, anything on streetcars, light rail, 22 being a danger to the public safety. 23 So if you have that information -- 24 not just a letter from the City of Boston, the 25 police commissioner or the fire commissioner, MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 102 1 who we all know -- I don't think Mayor Menino is 2 in favor of this restoration, so perhaps he 3 directed them to write such letters. But the 4 issue here is, if you have information like 5 that, from Philadelphia, Portland, San Diego, 6 Dallas, Texas, anywhere, you should present that 7 information, but not just tell us it's going to 8 be a public safety thing. 9 The other thing is cost standard, 10 and a couple of other people mentioned it. You 11 cannot use a different cost standard for the 12 Arborway than you use for Beacon Street or for 13 Riverside or any other service that you run. 14 When Arborway ran as a full car 15 line, it indeed was probably, it was either the 16 highest or second highest. It went back and 17 forth between Boston College. Riverside 18 probably cost a heck of a lot more money to both 19 operate and maintain than the Arborway line 20 does, and it probably returns less in terms of 21 fare box recovery than the Arborway. 22 So the operating costs associated 23 with running a duplicate bus service versus the 24 truncated Arborway line, that would be probably 25 reduced by getting rid of the 39 buses and MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 103 1 extending the Arborway streetcar. And you can't 2 use a different cost standard. You cannot use 3 that as a figure, as a reason why not to put 4 back this line. 5 And there's one more thing. Someone 6 mentioned tourists. And the impact -- light 7 rail is justified, fixed mode transit is 8 justified -- sometimes it's heavy Rapid Transit, 9 sometimes it's light rail. There are all sorts 10 of variations. And they are usually justified, 11 one of the justifications for building the 12 systems is yes, they cost more to run than do 13 buses, but they do a lot of good for the 14 businesses in the area they run in. 15 It's not just a question of taking 16 people from the neighborhood downtown, but it's 17 also a question of getting people out in the 18 neighborhood, both to work, to shop, and in some 19 cases to sight-see. Jamaica Plain has a lot of 20 attractions. It has the Arboretum, it has the 21 Franklin Park Zoo, which is over at Franklin 22 Park off Forest Hills. So there's a whole bunch 23 of things out here that people could get to by a 24 combination of the Orange Line and the Arborway 25 line. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 104 1 So rail service is usually 2 considered to be a positive thing for the 3 business community. And I don't see any reason 4 why it would be different in this particular 5 business community. 6 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes? 7 MS. CLOHERTY: I would like you to 8 add under the environmental impact that the 9 light rail has less of a damaging impact on the 10 roadbed itself. Buses, or whatever your 11 alternative or your other selection, has already 12 shown what it does to the roadbed. It damages 13 the roadbed. And light rail, there's very 14 little damage to the roadbed because of light 15 rail vehicles running over it. 16 Those buses are very heavy, and your 17 articulated buses are even heavier than very 18 heavy. And so -- and the damage that you see as 19 a result of those, all of those 39 buses rolling 20 over the track bed, please factor that into your 21 cost. 22 And my only other question would be, 23 let us know how it is that you notified the 24 community about this meeting. Because I 25 certainly didn't get any direct mail. And I MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 105 1 wonder about people who are in the Community 2 Planning Committee for the Arborway Yard. You 3 certainly have a list, so I would be interested 4 in how you notified people. 5 MS. LINDSAY TOGHILL: Lindsay 6 Toghill, from Senator Brian Joyce's office. 7 Early in the meeting you mentioned 8 about people being able to write in and 9 including letters, to be included as part of the 10 record. Second, you said conceptual design 11 plans would be presented in the second community 12 meeting. 13 I'm not sure we're ready for that. 14 We haven't gotten from you the agenda, 15 so-called, for this night. I mean, how are we 16 supposed to go forward with two meetings on this 17 issue when it's obviously something that's very 18 important to the community and we have a lot of 19 different opinions on it? I would like you -- 20 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: We have a tight 21 time frame given to us by DEP, and so I'm not 22 sure how we could delay it without getting some 23 relief from DEP for meeting the time frames that 24 they have put onto us. So I'm not sure how to 25 address the issue of having a longer process MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 106 1 with more meetings. He is going to need some 2 time to put together some of the things he heard 3 today to see what we can and cannot do. 4 I'm not sure how we can get more 5 time, because we are trying to do February 1 or 6 2nd, within a hundred fifty days of the time of 7 signing the consent order. And I'm really being 8 a bureaucrat, but I'm being thrust upon by a 9 bureaucrat. 10 MS. TOGHILL: But I think we have 11 proven through the CBCAY process that people are 12 willing to come out and meet, if we have an 13 opportunity. 14 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Can you get DEP 15 to extend it? 16 MR. KURLAND: I would like to say, 17 we have had already a hundred days of that a 18 hundred fifty days, and we are having our first 19 meeting. 20 Second of all, what I would like you 21 to do for the record is take either a voice vote 22 or a hand vote or some kind of consensus as to 23 whether people would wish to see light rail 24 service -- for the MBTA to do whatever it takes 25 to restore light rail service to this corridor MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 107 1 or not. Get a sense of the community right here 2 and now. Could you do that? 3 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I could do 4 that, but I'm not sure it will be very 5 productive. If you would like to submit a 6 letter, I would encourage you to put that in 7 writing. 8 MR. KURLAND: I am putting it on 9 the record that you are refusing to do that. 10 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes? 11 MR. BRIT SMITH: You have invited us 12 here to this meeting to hear our opinions and 13 our perspectives. We talked about process and 14 we have talked about some of our concerns, and 15 one of our main concerns with this list, voiced 16 by any number of people, is that all of the 17 issues that are raised in these feasibility 18 issues are negative or potential negatives. And 19 it seems the voice of the community has 20 demonstrated that it feels that there are a 21 number of positive aspects that evidently didn't 22 occur to the consultant whom you hired. And I 23 wonder if he has a set of topics that he's going 24 take from this meeting, that he's going to 25 pursue with the same rigor and detail as the MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 108 1 issues that he's listed here. 2 What are the positive impacts that 3 you are going to be addressing as a result of 4 hearing our points of view? 5 MR. GALLAGHER: I think we will 6 review all of your comments tonight, and we will 7 discuss it with the T and go from there. 8 MR. BRIT SMITH: Thank you. 9 MS. PATTERSON: I don't know where 10 it will fit on your list, but I don't see any 11 mention of the cost of providing the service 12 versus the benefit of eliminating smog 13 pollution. That's not here anywhere, and it 14 would seem it would fit in the cost of providing 15 service, which, I echo what you said. It 16 sounds negative. The cost of providing service 17 would be a deterrent. But everyone understands, 18 to minimize pollution which comes from the 19 buses, there is a cost. 20 MR. GALLAGHER: Let me back up. 21 This is not meant to be a comparison. These are 22 issues. These aren't meant to be negative or 23 positive. These are things we will look at to 24 put into -- to decide what the T decides, or let 25 the T and EOTC decide if it's feasible or not. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 109 1 MR. AHLBERG: One other engineering 2 alternative that you people here bring up 3 sarcastically, but it solves all of these 4 problems, either in the extremely congested area 5 on Centre or South Street, and that would be the 6 tunnel alternative. I would like to know 7 whether there's any plans to entertain that as a 8 real option to be able to restore service. 9 MR. SALIMBENE: I just, I appreciate 10 the suggestion that maybe we need more time, but 11 I would argue the opposite. If the MBTA is in a 12 tight spot today with regard to time and 13 planning, it's your own fault. 14 We have been through this. We 15 started studying Arborway with a lot of help 16 from Representative Fitzgerald and 17 Representative McDonough and Senator White at 18 the time. Back in 1986 we did a two-year study, 19 we had public hearings in 1988. Following that, 20 in 1989, again with very strong support and 21 interest from Representative Fitzgerald and 22 Representative McDonough and Senator White, 23 there was an agreement that the MBTA signed 24 where a number of these issues were enclosed and 25 were deemed in that agreement to be resolvable. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 110 1 We had the regulatory process before 2 DEP in 1991, which led to the regulations that 3 are the reason we are here tonight. We started 4 a process with the MBTA when Tom Glynn was 5 general manager in 1990 through about 1992. And 6 then the MBTA in 1993 started walking away from 7 Jamaica Plain and decided to impose the 8 Watertown solution on the Arborway line. And 9 it's only because DEP has held your toes to the 10 fire that you went back in 1999 without any 11 community input and any community involvement, 12 and you produced this report, which DEP rightly 13 said wasn't worth the paper it was written on, 14 because they said you didn't prove your case. 15 Now, I don't think that we -- 16 certainly I have lost more hair and am grayer 17 today that I ever was when we started it. I 18 don't think that I want to see this process 19 extended beyond the deadline that DEP has given 20 you. You agreed to that deadline in that 21 consent decree. It isn't that the DEP imposed 22 it on you. There was negotiation and 23 bargaining. You agreed to it, you stick with 24 it. You make your best shot at proving the 25 infeasibility of light rail when you go before MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 111 1 DEP with your results, and we will be there to 2 demonstrate to DEP at that time that you haven't 3 proven it. 4 So I would respectfully request that 5 no attempt be made to extend this process beyond 6 the March 2 deadline. 7 FROM THE FLOOR: Here, here. 8 MR. KYPER: Mr. Gallagher said that 9 the comparisons -- a minute ago, that the 10 comparisons were neutral. I beg to disagree. 11 The language is "loss, impacts, cost." It's 12 like three strikes, light rail is out. That's 13 what it's saying. 14 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Thank you. 15 Yes, ma'am? 16 MS. FIXLER: With the weight of the 17 projected vehicles that you are talking about, 18 compressed natural gas vehicles are something 19 like three or three and a half times the 20 weight. When you have this kind of weight 21 bearing on tires, the wear on the tires is 22 greatly increased. There's a black silt, an 23 oily silt that gets on everything, and it does 24 not enhance the quality of life. And I don't 25 know if tests have been done on the inhaling of MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 112 1 it, which has to be awful. 2 MS. WILLISON: On the feasibility 3 issue and other things that have been brought 4 up, if you had bench marks that people could 5 look at and see what you're quantifying, it 6 would be much more helpful than having sort of 7 amorphous issues. And I think that's one of the 8 main reasons we keep wanting a comparison, is 9 because you could have real data in comparison 10 of one system versus another, and make 11 reasonable arguments about those -- the pluses 12 and minuses of the different systems. 13 The other thing, to reinforce to 14 everyone in the room and whoever reads this 15 transcript, I think it's very clear, as the Back 16 Bay Association pointed out and Franklyn 17 Salimbene pointed out, you are sort of doing 18 this like looking at a balloon payment in the 19 mortgage rather than the whole mortgage, so that 20 you're analyzing what your costs and benefits 21 are over the whole spectrum of the benefit of 22 the system -- of the instrument. 23 In the case of a mortgage, that one 24 balloon payment can look pretty awesome, but 25 when you look at it in the context of the whole MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 113 1 instrument, then you have a whole other 2 understanding that you need to have, to come to 3 a reasonable decision on this process. 4 And I really want to underscore, the 5 "cost of providing service" just pops out at me 6 in a big way, saying, "Well, wait a minute. Are 7 you telling me -- are you going to give me a 8 good outline as to how you come up with what's a 9 feasible cost? I mean, are you really going to 10 tell me what it costs to do Riverside," and you 11 are going to say, "Yes, I'm committed to that 12 kind of cost"? And, you know, or are you going 13 to -- it's just a very negative statement. So 14 that's all I have to say. 15 MS. MANSON: If we have a tax 16 surplus, now is the time for more funding. I, 17 for one, would like to give up my tax break for 18 better service on the Green Line. I would be 19 glad to talk to the governor about it. Or the 20 lieutenant governor. 21 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: We will refer 22 that question to the representative. 23 Yes? 24 MS. CLOHERTY: The Arborway has 25 nine-, at least nine-minute headways. The other MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 114 1 Green line services have fewer minute headways. 2 We would like some equity out there. 3 MR. ARTHUR JOHNSON: As long as you 4 are putting cost-benefit analysis on the table, 5 I would like to put on the table the 6 cost-benefit analysis of putting this money into 7 Mattapan or Dorchester, or some other 8 neighborhood that has a greater need for these 9 transportation resources than we do. 10 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: So what I would 11 like to do now is, we have to be out of here, 12 close up all the chairs. We are going to do -- 13 MS. KRESSEL: I just want to be sure 14 that -- we have talked a lot about criteria 15 here, which you have a few which are -- mostly 16 are all negative. So you need a positive -- to 17 do a cost benefit, you also need standards, you 18 need thresholds. So are you going to, when you 19 do an infeasibility judgment, say, "Well, this 20 is the level at which we judge something 21 infeasible"? Are we going to know explicitly 22 what you think this system and this community 23 are worth in terms of each of these criteria? 24 MR. GALLAGHER: I think there will 25 have to be an evaluation. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 115 1 MS. KESSEL: How is that judgment 2 going to be made? What levels are the cutoffs 3 for feasibility? 4 MR. GALLAGHER: We are going to 5 present the data in a report, and it will all be 6 evaluated. 7 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Then EOTC will 8 take it and make the evaluation. So perhaps we 9 can try to understand what the criteria will 10 be. We are, in some respects, the MBTA is the 11 agent of EOTC. 12 MR. MILOSEWICZ: Serge Milosewicz. 13 I work at Brigham and Women's Hospital, and I 14 live in Newton. I'm just here visiting this 15 fine community, but I have an interest in light 16 rail transit. 17 I'm frankly confused about this 18 whole infeasibility issue. Of course it's 19 feasible. Anything is feasible. You have to 20 have the political will, and the community will 21 see what the issues are, and all the issues can 22 be addressed and dealt with and a solution can 23 be provided. 24 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes? 25 MR. NATHAN: I have a request for MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 116 1 the next meeting and the venue. Anybody that 2 ever meets at a public meeting at Jamaica Plain 3 knows you never schedule anything you can avoid 4 with this particular room. And when you have 5 wonderful auditoriums and classrooms at a number 6 of local community centers, the Agassiz School 7 and English High School in particular, there's 8 no -- and the state laboratories all within a 9 ten-minute walk of here -- there's no reason to 10 ever meet in this room. 11 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I don't 12 disagree. They have a room downstairs, but it 13 might be too small. It was kind of recommended 14 to us, but unfortunately this is inappropriate. 15 You are right. 16 Yes? 17 MR. TOBIAS JOHNSON: I would like to 18 just state for the record, echoing Jeff 19 Kurland's point earlier in the evening that 20 according to the consent decree -- you denied 21 knowledge of it, I guess -- but it says, "As it 22 appears Arborway project will be delayed beyond 23 December 31, 2000, EOTC must propose interim 24 substitution measures which also meet air 25 quality benefit requirements of the regulation MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 117 1 for that period of delay." 2 So I would like to know, next time 3 we meet, what the MBTA proposes to meet the air 4 quality regulations, and specifically what those 5 regulations are, and how you might improve 6 ridership until restoration is accomplished for 7 that period. 8 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I can ask the 9 EOTC how they are dealing with it. I'm not 10 aware of anything that they have undertaken. 11 MR. TOBIAS JOHNSON: So that puts 12 you in violation of this agreement. 13 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I don't know if 14 we did it or not. No one told me that we were 15 going to. 16 MR. TOBIAS JOHNSON: Will you look 17 into that? 18 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: We can ask EOTC 19 if they have done such a thing. 20 We have the following things we are 21 going to do. We are going to check with the DEP 22 relative to the alternative side. We are going 23 to take the comments we have heard tonight and 24 give Bill an opportunity to come up with the 25 conceptual design of what light rail could look MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 118 1 like. 2 And number three, we'll meet on 3 January, January 17 -- and look at the 4 possibility of a new venue, if possible -- and 5 present what Bill has, but also present what we 6 hear from DEP, and we will see how the process 7 gets changed, based on what DEP tells us. 8 FROM THE FLOOR: Reconsidering some 9 of the factors that go into feasibility. 10 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: That's going to 11 take that into consideration. 12 MR. SALIMBENE: When can we have the 13 minutes? 14 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: We will have 15 them in two or three weeks. 16 MR. SALIMBENE: Will you mail them 17 to everybody on the list? 18 MR. KURLAND: Could you put them on 19 the Web site? 20 MS. CLOHERTY: Everybody does not 21 have access to e-mail. It's the MBTA's 22 responsibility -- this is a very important 23 meeting. We want those minutes mailed to 24 everybody who signed up. If you have e-mail and 25 you want to use that, fine, but they should be MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 119 1 mailed to us. Those are important minutes. 2 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I will look to 3 see what we can do. I'm not sure what the 4 policy is. I don't think this is going to be a 5 four- or five-page set of minutes, but -- 6 MR. SALIMBENE: You and I had a 7 telephone exchange of messages. My 8 understanding was you agreed that the minutes 9 would be available and people would need to be 10 able to review them. 11 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I was thinking 12 one, not a hundred. 13 MR. SALIMBENE: It's a minor cost. 14 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I don't know 15 what the policy is. We will check into it. 16 MR. PETER NERSESIAN: It's Peter 17 Nersesian. 18 The minutes, whether or not -- well, 19 I think they should be sent out to everyone 20 here, if that's what you promised. There's no 21 reason why they should not be put on line in 22 addition to whatever else you do. They 23 absolutely should be, because this affects a lot 24 more people than are in this room, and there are 25 a lot more people that have the right to access MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 120 1 to the proceedings that went on here. 2 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I don't control 3 access to the Web, but -- 4 MR. NATHAN: Traditionally how you 5 have handled this problem is you have public 6 locations, such as your local city or town hall 7 or local branch libraries, like the one next 8 door, so you can have public perusal copies. 9 The other thing is, where are 10 comments by anyone who is here or not here 11 tonight to be mailed to? 12 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Send them to 13 me. 14 MR. NATHAN: Dictate what, who and 15 where. 16 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I will give you 17 my card, but I will say it also: Dennis, D-I 18 capital Z-O-G-L-I-O. At the Transportation 19 Building, Ten Park Plaza, room 5750, Boston, 20 Massachusetts, 02116. 21 FROM THE FLOOR: Along with the 22 minutes at the libraries and other public 23 locations, the handout tonight should be also 24 available. 25 MR. SALIMBENE: The handout should MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 121 1 be burned. 2 MS. WEPSIC: Two things. Follow up 3 on EOTC about the LRV-restoring past the end of 4 December of this year. There has to be relief 5 -- whatever Tobias said, transit -- 6 intermittent. And I would like to ask EOTC 7 where to report back at the next meeting. 8 My name is Karen Wepsic. I left my 9 name there. If you have trouble booking another 10 room, I will be happy to do that. I book the 11 Agassiz all the time, or the state labs. And I 12 don't want you to tell us that this is the only 13 room you could get. I will be happy to do that. 14 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: This was 15 recommended. 16 MS. WEPSIC: Who recommended this? 17 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I don't want 18 to, obviously -- 19 MS. WEPSIC: This is obviously 20 somebody who knew about the state labs. I 21 believe this space was chosen for a reason. 22 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: It was not, 23 believe me. I asked someone and they gave me 24 this recommendation. 25 MS. WEPSIC: Please call or get in MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 122 1 touch with me if you cannot book a room. I will 2 certainly book it for you. 3 4 (Whereupon the meeting ended at 8:20 5 p.m.) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 123 1 CERTIFICATE 2 3 4 Commonwealth of Massachusetts 5 Suffolk, ss. 6 7 8 I, Kathleen L. McCarthy, Registered 9 Professional Reporter and Notary Public, do 10 hereby certify that the foregoing record, pages 11 1 through 122, inclusive, is a complete accurate 12 and true transcription of my stenographic notes 13 taken in the aforementioned matter to the best 14 of my skills and ability. 15 _____________________ 16 Kathleen L. McCarthy RPR 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207