1 1 VOL. I 2 PAGES 1 - 117 3 4 5 6 COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS 7 8 9 ARBORWAY 10 LIGHT RAIL RESTORATION 11 PUBLIC MEETING 12 13 14 MODERATOR: Dennis A. DiZoglio 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Agassiz Community Center Auditorium, First Floor 22 Jamaica Plain, Massachusetts Wednesday, February 28, 2001 23 Commencing at 6:00 p.m. 24 MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 2 1 Representing 2 MASSACHUSETTS BAY TRANSPORTATION AUTHORITY 3 Transportation Building Ten Park Plaza, Room 5750 4 Boston, Massachusetts 02116 5 DENNIS A. DiZOGLIO, Director of Planning 6 JOSEPH M. COSGROVE, Deputy Director of Planning 7 8 Representing 9 SYSTRA CONSULTING, INC. 10 38 Chauncy Street, Suite 805 Boston, Massachusetts 02111 11 ERIK SCHEIER, P.E., Project Manager 12 MONICA BARROW, Project Manager 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 3 1 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Good evening. 2 We might as well start. It's about seven past. 3 And so, welcome to the third meeting of the 4 possible restoration of light rail along the 5 Arborway. For those who are new to the process 6 this evening, my name is Dennis DiZoglio. I'm 7 the director of planning for the MBTA. And as I 8 mentioned, this is the third meeting in this 9 process. 10 If I could, I would like to try to 11 give you an update as to where we are at this 12 moment. At our first meeting we talked more 13 about the process, and how we were given a 14 direction by DEP to conduct this analysis. And 15 we also talked about the parameters of restoring 16 light rail to the Arborway. 17 At the second meeting we came back 18 with the consultants, giving an overview of the 19 kind of light rail service that could be 20 provided along the Arborway, and you were kind 21 enough to give us your comments on some of the 22 ideas that they had. 23 Now, during the process there was a 24 lot of discussion about the comparison, and the MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 4 1 need to compare what was perceived as a possible 2 substitution with the light rail. And this is 3 where we are at in this process tonight. It's 4 the third meeting, and the focus will be on the 5 comparison side of the analysis. 6 Now, a little bit of housekeeping, 7 in that there was some comment at the last 8 meeting about possibly ending the public 9 process, or the public meeting process, to 10 coincide with DEP's March 2nd deadline. And we 11 talked with DEP about that. And so they have 12 concurred, and this will be the last meeting 13 associated with the process. 14 So we'll be done by the March 2nd 15 deadline of DEP, and then we will shoot to get 16 our report to EOTC, the Executive Office of 17 Transportation and Construction, who will make 18 their determination and their comments known on 19 the May 2nd -- May 1st -- deadline I believe 20 that they have, by DEP's time frame. 21 So that is the status of where we 22 are at right now. What I would like to do is 23 kind of give you an idea of what we are going to 24 try to accomplish this evening. At the last MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 5 1 meeting there was a suggestion that, when I 2 talked about alternatives that we could compare, 3 that most people, I thought, based on my 4 comments, said, "What alternatives?" There's 5 two alternatives, light rail and the CNG bus 6 alternative." And if there's no major concerns 7 with that, we will use those two as the 8 comparison for this study. 9 Yes? 10 MS. REBECCA KUSHNER: Rebecca 11 Kushner, 95 Jamaica Street. 12 I don't know a lot about it. What 13 about electric? I don't want to push pollution 14 off into another neighborhood, but does that 15 have less pollution emitted but still provide 16 the same service? 17 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Electric 18 trolleys, trackless trolleys, was an option in 19 the past. However, there was a concern that if 20 we want to try to get a one-seat ride from 21 Forest Hills down to Park Street, that a 22 trackless trolley would be limited, because the 23 catenary would not be past Heath Street. And 24 then you have to bring that catenary throughout MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 6 1 the entire city of Boston, which would be 2 problematic. 3 So that's why we thought it was not 4 an alternative that could be considered on the 5 comparison. We thought that the CNG bus and 6 light rail section of the Green Line would be 7 the most appropriate alternative. 8 MS. KUSHNER: So the CNG bus can go 9 into the tunnel, for the one-seat ride? 10 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: No, they would 11 have to go on the street to go the one-seat 12 ride, down to that location. 13 MS. KUSHNER: So that's not the same 14 as the trackless trolley? 15 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Well, the 16 catenary above -- you would have to put electric 17 catenary throughout the whole system. We don't 18 have an electric bus that runs without 19 catenary. You'd have to have a catenary. 20 MS. KUSHNER: Right. 21 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: For the 22 stenographer, when you stand up, could you 23 please give your name and address so she can 24 record it for the record, please. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 7 1 MR. JEFFREY FERRIS: Jeffrey Ferris, 2 51 Sedgewick Street, Jamaica Plain. 3 I think there are a number of 4 alternatives I would like to see looked at to 5 compare. The one-seat ride to Park Street made 6 a lot of sense when the T was developed many 7 years ago, but I think today many people would 8 really look for many different one-seat rides. 9 People go to Kenmore Square, Kendall Square, 10 Harvard Square. And that the number of people 11 actually desiring to go from Jamaica Plain to 12 Park Street on this route is actually fairly 13 small. Whereas people have many destinations 14 today. 15 And the idea that with a -- not with 16 a rail-focused route, but that the 39 17 replacement might look at a number of different 18 destinations which rubber-tired service could 19 provide. We could have one-seat rides to many 20 locations. As our friends of -- the trolley 21 advocates have often pointed out, minimizing 22 transit locations is very important. 23 And looking at replacement for this 24 line, we might be able to come up with a number MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 8 1 of one-seat rides that provide consistent 2 service from Centre and South Street down into 3 the Huntington, South Huntington area, and then 4 actually go different directions. It might be 5 the 39, the 40 -- I don't know what the numbers 6 are. That's one alternative I would like to 7 have looked at. 8 Another would be to look at, if we 9 are looking at primarily the Centre, South 10 Huntington, Huntington route, to look at the 11 option of putting the rubber-tired vehicles into 12 the center reservation from Brigham Circle on 13 in, and it being the exclusive user of that 14 reservation, meaning that the trolley would not 15 run, or sharing it with the trolley. Perhaps 16 looking to having it go into the tunnel, looking 17 at a long-term suggestion, that, well, taking 18 several years out now, that a tunnel, a new 19 tunnel, perhaps leading downtown under let's say 20 Saint James Street, that this would go on, 21 lightening the load of the Green Line onto 22 Boylston Street, where you have heavy use of the 23 B, C and D lines. Having to -- you know, not to 24 have the crossover there, you have the E line MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 9 1 coming in, and allowing a significant increase 2 in the number of transit vehicles you could get 3 going into the downtown area. 4 Thank you. 5 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Just to 6 clarify, we would not be able to share a subway 7 vehicle with a bus vehicle in the same 8 right-of-way. That wouldn't be possible. But I 9 appreciate the rest of your comments. 10 MR. FERRIS: Well, we do that on 11 Huntington and South Huntington, where it is on 12 the street, and the street shares the rail and 13 the bus currently. And perhaps that could also 14 be done on the reservation, so that the trolley 15 could share that at least as far as 16 Northeastern, to speed its time in a heavier 17 traffic time. 18 Actually, there's another piece of 19 alternative to look at, which would be including 20 both express and local service. One of the 21 so-called advantages of the streetcars is there 22 are fewer stops, which makes the travel time 23 shorter. But the disadvantage is that you lose 24 a lot of your local stops. But a bus could MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 10 1 actually have both express and local. You could 2 have one bus express and have maybe ten stops 3 going into town. And your local bus could make 4 every stop. The express bus would actually pass 5 most of the buses on the way in. 6 And perhaps the continuation to Park 7 Street might be suitable for some limited number 8 of the buses, but probably -- I don't see it 9 necessarily as needed for all the buses from 10 Jamaica Plain to Forest Hills travelling to Park 11 Street. But there is some demand for that, and 12 it should be met. 13 Thank you. 14 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Does someone 15 have their hand up here? Okay. 16 The second element of tonight's 17 meeting was to review the evaluation criteria 18 that the new consultants -- as you know, we used 19 URS for the engineering side of designing a 20 light rail service. And so tonight we are going 21 to have a new consultant. Monica Barrow and 22 Eric Scheier from SYSTRA will be leading the 23 discussion. And they will be reviewing with you 24 the goals and objectives and the criteria that MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 11 1 will be used as part of this comparison, so that 2 we will compare the issues they are talking 3 about, or we will share with you the light rail 4 and the bus alternative. 5 So if there's no questions other 6 than getting into this, why won't we ask them to 7 come up and review with you those goals and 8 objectives and criteria. 9 Mr. Salimbene? 10 MR. FRANKLYN SALIMBENE: Thank you 11 very much. Franklyn Salimbene, 51 Eliot 12 Street. 13 I have the letter from the 14 commissioner to Secretary Sullivan that sets out 15 the timetable for these meetings. And my 16 reading of the letter is that by March 2nd, you 17 must have decided, as a result of these public 18 meetings, whether or not light rail is feasible 19 or infeasible. And if so, by March 2nd, you 20 need to propose an alternative. 21 And it seems to me that tonight all 22 you are doing is proposing that you are going to 23 begin to study an alternative, and not allow any 24 further discussion publicly regarding any MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 12 1 alternatives that you come up with. 2 Is that the direction you are going 3 in? 4 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I'm not sure. 5 To take -- EOTC is the entity that will make the 6 determination of the feasibility. It will not 7 be the MBTA. 8 MR. SALIMBENE: I understand that, 9 of course. 10 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: And what we 11 have interpreted from that timetable is that the 12 public process will be completed by March 2nd, 13 and then the data that we have collected and 14 what we are preparing will be given to EOTC for 15 them to make the determination and 16 recommendation for that May 2nd time frame. So 17 they will be taking what is coming out of this 18 public process that we are in and making their 19 feelings known in that May 2nd time frame. 20 MR. SALIMBENE: I -- let me read 21 this. And I'm sorry if I'm taking the time of 22 the meeting. 23 "EOTC" -- that's you, or at least 24 your parent agency -- "shall conduct a public MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 13 1 and community involvement process for the 2 purpose of scoping and reviewing a revised 3 infeasibility determination, and if necessary a 4 proposed alternative project for Arborway 5 restoration." That's the process we are in. 6 "This process shall be concluded by 7 March 2nd of 2001. And if the project is found 8 infeasible by EOTC upon conclusion of this 9 process" -- which is tonight and the 2nd of 10 March -- then you will have to present your 11 findings to DEP for its decision. 12 But what -- the point that I'm 13 making, if we can get away from the words for a 14 second, is simply that the letter from the 15 commissioner requires that you have made your 16 decision and have made it known by the 2nd of 17 March. That is, your decision as to what you 18 will recommend. 19 And it seems to me that you are 20 nowhere near meeting that deadline of March 2nd 21 for making a recommendation. You are not here 22 tonight to tell us whether or not you have 23 determined in your own view that light rail is 24 feasible or infeasible. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 14 1 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: That's correct. 2 MR. SALIMBENE: But according to 3 this, you must do that by March 2nd. 4 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I think we have 5 a difference of interpretation. Our belief is 6 that the public process would end by March 2nd, 7 and then there will be a determination by EOTC 8 at that May 2nd deadline. So it's our intent to 9 pass on everything we have been collecting over 10 the last three or four months, and the reports 11 when we are completed, to EOTC for their 12 determination. So what you are asking for will 13 be done by May 2nd. 14 MR. SALIMBENE: Well, I think it's 15 what the commissioner is asking for, and he 16 wants it by March 2nd. 17 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Well, we had a 18 meeting with DEP the other day. And I know we 19 always debate what their intent was, but our 20 intent, without even going into "he said, she 21 said," our intent is to provide DEP -- or EOTC's 22 intent is to provide DEP a decision by May 2nd. 23 Okay? 24 MR. SALIMBENE: Okay. Thanks. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 15 1 MR. MOLONEY: Just as a follow-up -- 2 Kevin Moloney, 20 Rambler Road. 3 As a follow-up to my friend Franklyn 4 Salimbene's comment, whether he's right or 5 wrong, isn't there an inherent unfairness to 6 what you folks propose to do? In other words, 7 we have had two prior meetings, we have had a 8 study and analysis of various things, and now we 9 are about to hear what you haven't decided yet 10 is going to be the alternative, because you say 11 you haven't decided that restoration is 12 infeasible, while your expert just recently said 13 that it was feasible, because he said it was 14 possible. 15 And then you are going to close off 16 the public and retreat to the Back Bay and have 17 private meetings with your superior agency 18 without having the public have the ability to 19 comment on it, before you spring whatever it is 20 you are going to spring on the public sometime 21 in May. Isn't that basically unfair? 22 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I think what 23 you described is unfair, but I think what you've 24 just described is unfair to us, because during MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 16 1 the process, it was very clear in the very first 2 meeting that there was a desire to do a 3 comparison. We talked about doing a feasibility 4 analysis, and a lot of the people in that room, 5 if you remember, were very interested in doing a 6 comparison analysis. 7 So we talked with DEP about 8 expanding it to include a comparison. We are 9 doing what we have been asked to do. It seems 10 like every time we ask, you say, well, we are 11 not doing it right. I think that the only way 12 to resolve this is for us to continue the 13 process, for us to try to do a comparison, to 14 try to present what we discovered to EOTC, let 15 them meet the statutory or the DEP requirement 16 on May 2nd, and then you can view it at that 17 time. 18 MR. MOLONEY: Well, whether or not 19 -- I guess I didn't make my point clear. 20 Whether or not Franklyn Salimbene is correct in 21 his interpretation of what in my mind is very 22 clear from the state officials having 23 jurisdiction -- but let's assume for the sake of 24 argument he's wrong and you're right. My point MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 17 1 is that here we are now, you have not yet made a 2 decision as to infeasibility. Yet your expert 3 from this very platform said that it was 4 feasible the last time. And that's in the very 5 competently kept transcript of these 6 proceedings. 7 And now you are going to spring some 8 kind of alternative on us, and yet you are going 9 to retreat to the Back Bay without any 10 communication from the public upon it. That's 11 where the unfairness is. 12 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: We had intended 13 to do more public participation, but it was, 14 quite frankly, raised that, "No, you can't do 15 any more public participation" -- 16 MR. MOLONEY: Sir, don't try to tell 17 this community -- 18 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: -- that March 19 2nd would be the deadline. 20 MR. MOLONEY: Please don't try to 21 tell this community, that is preeminent in 22 public participation, that it's our fault that 23 you folks can't have a public process. That's 24 patently ridiculous. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 18 1 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: No one is 2 saying it's anybody's fault. I heard distinctly 3 at the last meeting, they wanted to bring a 4 conclusion to the public process. It was 5 clearly stated at that time. And that's what we 6 are trying to do, we're trying to get the last 7 piece -- 8 MR. MOLONEY: We all want things to 9 end. Pregnancies end, buildings get built -- 10 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: And that's what 11 we are doing. 12 MR. MOLONEY: -- but we want 13 participation in the process. You are about to 14 shut the door on us. And that's where the 15 unfairness comes. 16 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: And I don't 17 know how we can do both. 18 Yes? 19 MR. JEFF KURLAND: My name is Jeff 20 Kurland. 21 Might I suggest that when your 22 consultant, when your expert said that it is 23 feasible for light rail to run on the Arborway 24 line, that the public process should have ended MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 19 1 right there, the whole process should have ended 2 right there. Because the whole purpose of 3 everything is, any substitute can only be 4 presented if the light rail is infeasible. 5 Having -- since the consultants said it is 6 feasible, and you hired the consultants, then I 7 claim that the public process should have 8 stopped right there. Everything should have 9 stopped right there. And you should be making 10 plans to return the light rail to this 11 community. 12 MR. SALIMBENE: Can I make a 13 clarification? I'm sorry. Just with regard to 14 the point you made, it is true that we wanted 15 the public process to abide by the guidelines in 16 the consent degree that EOTC and the secretary 17 signed with DEP. 18 I think what the consent decree 19 envisioned, whether you have a sequential 20 process where you looked at the feasibility of 21 light rail first and then an alternative second, 22 or whether you looked at them simultaneously, 23 that that process should end on the 2nd, and we 24 should move to the next phase, which is the MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 20 1 preparation of the report to DEP for its 2 decision in May. 3 What has happened is since the 4 consent degree was signed on September 1st, EOTC 5 has allowed almost six months to go by and 6 continues in my view the practice of dragging 7 out the process, which is why we wanted the 8 March 2nd deadline. The assumption was that all 9 of the work that EOTC had to do preparatory to 10 drafting a report, which included reaching the 11 decision, would be done by March 2nd. 12 So I can concur in some of what you 13 said, but with the explanation I have just 14 given. And I'm sorry I have taken up this much 15 time. 16 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I think it 17 would be fair to say there has been some 18 confusion and some disagreement over the process 19 from the very beginning. At the very first 20 meeting there was a great deal of discussion 21 about the process. And there could be an 22 element of misinterpretation. 23 But from my vantage point, what I 24 was believing was that the community did not MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 21 1 want it to be strictly a feasibility study, that 2 there was definitely a comparison element that 3 people thought was important to include, and 4 that the public process be completed by March 5 2nd to comply with DEP. And that's what I have 6 tried to implement. It may not be exactly what 7 people were hoping, but what I was hearing from 8 the public is what drove me to that conclusion. 9 Yes, sir? Could you state your name 10 and address for the record? 11 MR. DAN REIS: Dan Reis. I was just 12 wondering, is there going to be a further period 13 of public comment? Are you going to present a 14 further opportunity for public comment? 15 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: We will always 16 take, even beyond March 2nd, we will take any 17 kind of written comments that someone may have. 18 Obviously your comments this evening will be 19 recorded as well. But we will be able to take 20 comments, I would say, up until probably mid 21 April, when we are going to give the report to 22 EOTC. 23 MR. REIS: I haven't been following 24 the process too closely. I just came tonight. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 22 1 This is the first meeting I have been to. 2 I have been in Jamaica Plain about 3 ten or twelve years, and I had lived here when 4 we did have streetcars. And I think it was very 5 nice to have them, but there were some problems 6 with them. I mean, if a car would stop in front 7 of the streetcars, it would just stop all flow 8 on the street. I think it would be very nice to 9 have, but I see a lot of difficulties with 10 them. 11 But getting beyond all of that, I 12 think whatever they do decide, whatever you 13 decide to have, it should work. As I see it 14 now, the 39 bus is run very, very poorly. And I 15 have written to them about the scheduling, about 16 getting three or four buses in a row. And they 17 have replied, saying that they have problems 18 with the dispatcher and supervision. Evidently 19 the bus drivers need supervision in pull-in and 20 waiting time. And then I spoke to some of the 21 bus drivers about that, when they bunch up, and 22 they said, "The dispatcher sends us out in a 23 column." 24 And what I feel is that no matter MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 23 1 what they do, it should be equivalent to a 2 rail. If it's a bus, which I am actually in 3 favor of, it should be equivalent to rail in 4 terms of quality of service. I think if the T 5 is interested in running a bus service and in 6 making that work, they should try to improve the 7 quality of this line in particular, and I think 8 there will be a lot less public disagreement. 9 And again, I feel that buses may 10 work better in the congested traffic of the 11 center of JP. 12 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Thank you. 13 MS. KUSHNER: Rebecca Kushner. My 14 apologies to the consultant and to you for 15 speaking out of order. There's a community 16 police meeting that I need to go to now. 17 I just want to say what I think you 18 need to study, which was not mentioned last 19 time, is whether the number of riders will 20 decrease or increase with each method, whether a 21 population would be impacted in terms of what 22 group would increase or what group would 23 decrease. How pollution would be affected. 24 That hasn't been mentioned at all. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 24 1 And also a bicycle study needs to be 2 done in terms of how many bikes use Centre 3 Street and South Street and South Huntington in 4 the a.m. during rush hour and the p.m. during 5 rush hour and on weekends. And it also needs to 6 be done after daylight savings time when 7 ridership increases dramatically. And how are 8 bicycles going to be impacted by whatever choice 9 you make. 10 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Thank you very 11 much. That's exactly the kind of comments that 12 we need. 13 MS. KUSHNER: Glad to help. 14 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Thank you. 15 So with that, I'm going to ask the 16 consultant, Monica, to come on up and kind of 17 review with you the goals and objectives and the 18 criteria. 19 MR. DAVE NATHAN: Do you have any 20 handouts? 21 MS. BARROW: I don't. 22 MR. NATHAN: Then please read every 23 word on the board. 24 MS. BARROW: I'm pretty much going MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 25 1 to, but stop me if you can't read anything. 2 Also if you need me to move these, tell me. 3 There are six goals proposed to be 4 used to compare alternatives. These are meant 5 to be read across, but I'm going through the 6 goals first because that's sort of a foundation 7 and a framework, and then I will go through the 8 criteria in order of the goal. 9 The first goal -- let me say, you 10 might want to move the first or second one. 11 They are not necessarily meant to be in order. 12 So when I refer to them as first or second, I 13 don't mean there's a hierarchy. 14 The first goal is to achieve 15 regional air quality standards. I think 16 everyone in this room, as familiar as you are 17 with the issues, understands the relationship 18 between how to consider an alternative and the 19 air quality issues involved, in any 20 transportation project. So clearly a goal 21 associated with this selection would be to 22 achieve air quality standards. 23 The next goal is to maintain public 24 safety. The public safety goal is a reflection MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 26 1 of a desire to capture how an alternative would 2 affect the way vehicles on the street are 3 affected. 4 The next goal is to increase transit 5 usage. That's probably a goal that you would 6 find associated with any transportation project 7 anywhere. Clearly we want to pick an 8 alternative that is going to have people riding 9 it. The more the merrier. 10 Preserve local business is the next 11 goal. That one is believed to capture the goals 12 of this community to have a thriving local 13 business, keep things healthy for the 14 merchants. 15 The next goal, develop an 16 operationally effective solution, recognizes 17 that -- I think someone either tonight or in a 18 transcript mentioned that all services are 19 related, and they are. When you do something to 20 a service in one place, you can have an effect 21 on another. So this goal is meant to capture 22 that we would want to look at alternatives in 23 terms of the way they affect other parts of the 24 system. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 27 1 And finally, the last goal is to 2 comply with the Americans with Disabilities 3 Act. Complying with the law might seem like, 4 sure, that's a goal, but in this case that's an 5 important dimension of all of the alternatives. 6 So it's a goal for the service. 7 MR. MOLONEY: A question. Whose 8 goals are those? 9 MS. BARROW: These are the goals 10 that were endorsed by the T previously for 11 alternatives. 12 MR. MOLONEY: So this is a list of 13 the T's goals? But isn't part of what we are 14 about here to arrive at what the community might 15 see as the community's goals? 16 MS. BARROW: You should tell us if 17 any of these goals make no sense or there are 18 goals missing or -- 19 MR. MOLONEY: One which comes to 20 mind is a connection between Forest Hills along 21 the full length of the line and Park Street with 22 one ride, no transfer. And I don't see that on 23 your goals or objectives or your criteria. 24 MS. BARROW: Okay. You can't see it MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 28 1 because it's not -- 2 MR. MOLONEY: That's not one of your 3 goals? 4 MS. BARROW: Well, the one-seat ride 5 to Park Street, that's here, and it's associated 6 with increased transit use. 7 MR. MOLONEY: But why should it not 8 be on the goals? 9 MS. CLOHERTY: We can give you a pen 10 and you can write it in. 11 MR. FERRIS: It sounds like an 12 objective to me. 13 MS. BARROW: We can have a 14 philosophical discussion about sort of a goal 15 versus an objective. A goal is usually just a 16 higher level, top level, more generic sort of 17 thing. Things could easily move around. 18 MR. MOLONEY: Why don't we move the 19 one-ride-to-Park-Street from the middle one to 20 the left? As somebody said, we could write it 21 in. 22 MS. BARROW: Well, it's getting in 23 the record by you saying it. 24 MR. MOLONEY: Well, it's better in MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 29 1 the record if you write it in. 2 MR. FERRIS: Kevin, who's running 3 this meeting? 4 MS. BARROW: I'm not going to go and 5 start writing in -- 6 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Sir? 7 MR. DAVID ROHRLICH: David Rohrlich, 8 18 Arborway. 9 Is one of your goals to comply with 10 state law? 11 MS. BARROW: Complying with state 12 law is not an option, but -- 13 MR. ROHRLICH: But it's really the 14 most relevant goal. The reason this meeting is 15 happening is there is actually a state mandate 16 governing how we proceed. And so anything that 17 happens has to be complied with. Right? 18 MS. BARROW: Yes, anything that 19 happens has to be complying with state law. 20 MR. ROHRLICH: So one of the things 21 -- and what the state regulation says is that 22 any substitute has to be a genuine substitute 23 for the suspended service. I don't see that 24 there, but that's the relevant state law. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 30 1 MS. BARROW: It could definitely be 2 the case that an alternative could be conceived 3 of and thought about and then found to be not 4 compliant with the state law. And maybe -- I 5 hear what you are saying. And I guess I don't 6 believe that we would start to develop an 7 alternative that we would know up front couldn't 8 be compliant. But another thing to do is to 9 define the terms of that compliance and make 10 sure that we have it in here so it will be 11 compliant with state law. 12 It might be useful if I go through 13 the objectives and the criteria which elaborate 14 on the goals, because I recognize that everyone 15 can't see, reading that way. You would have 16 heard it, and if, you know, something is 17 missing, we can continue this or we can stop and 18 keep talking about the goals. 19 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Why don't you 20 keep on going. 21 MS. BARROW: Okay. Associated with 22 the goal of regional air-quality standards is 23 the objective to comply with the provisions of 24 the Clean Air Act and the state's implementation MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 31 1 plan requirements. And that's measured by 2 emissions, by a measurement of the emissions 3 associated with each alternative. There are 4 specific gases that are required to be reduced 5 to be compliant. And that would be the way that 6 two alternatives would be compared, and in that 7 kind of framework. 8 The emissions, the air quality 9 forecasts are justified by CTPS using a regional 10 model. That is what's used for all the things 11 for consistency. 12 Maintaining public safety, the 13 objective associated with that is to avoid 14 obstructions to traffic flow and the criteria -- 15 MS. KAREN WEPSIC: I would like to 16 change "avoid obstructions to traffic flow" to 17 "avoid obstructions to emergency vehicle flow," 18 because cars as part of traffic can pull over. 19 We want to avoid -- we don't necessarily care if 20 we are obstructing traffic. We want to not 21 obstruct police and emergency vehicles. 22 MS. BARROW: Okay. The criterion I 23 had here was to allow free passage of emergency 24 vehicles. But we can think about whether we MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 32 1 need to change that, but -- 2 MR. FERRIS: I would just disagree 3 with the "we," in terms of wanting to limit it 4 to obstructing emergency vehicles. Certainly 5 the slower cars move through the street, the 6 longer they sit there, the more pollution they 7 make, and it certainly has an impact on your 8 local air quality. So I don't know, I don't 9 have a problem with leaving "avoid obstructions 10 to traffic flow" as it is. 11 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Perhaps it 12 would be easier if we went through all of them 13 and then we can open it up to all these 14 comments. It might be helpful to get it all in 15 the open. 16 MS. BARROW: Okay. "Increase 17 transit usage" has several objectives associated 18 with it. One is to increase ridership in 19 general. Another is the one-seat ride to Park 20 Street, which is absolutely critical to the 21 usage, the overall usage of any alternative. 22 And the other two are things that 23 improve schedule reliability, things like 24 on-time performance, the bunching issue, which MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 33 1 we have over here, and to improve passenger 2 comfort, which captures a lot of things that are 3 a dimension of that: crowding, standees. All 4 of those things can be captured by comfort. 5 And so that's what I did -- I sort 6 of jumped to criteria. You have riders, how the 7 alternative would be in terms of waiting areas, 8 what the running time would be, the crowding 9 factor. All of those things are related to the 10 overall goal of getting people to ride whatever 11 it is. 12 Preserving local business translates 13 to improving access to business, which in turn 14 has criteria having to do with on-street 15 parking, minimizing disruption to businesses, 16 both when operating and when it's being built. 17 And minimizing impacts to pedestrian and traffic 18 flows. Those are three ways of capturing the 19 kind of things we would want to look into with 20 an alternative, about the goal. 21 The next one, develop an 22 operationally effective solution. And this has 23 to do with looking at overall system 24 performance, which translates to system MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 34 1 reliability, maintenance of the safety goals and 2 overall cost-benefit tradeoffs. 3 And the final one, the ADA, is 4 pretty much the most straightforward, and the 5 objective is to insure accessibility. And we 6 look at the extent to which the station stops 7 and vehicles are compliant. 8 So I think I probably said every 9 word, but I would be happy to read something 10 again if you didn't hear it or if I went too 11 fast. 12 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: If I could, I 13 will act as the MC. Ms. Wepsic? 14 MS. WEPSIC: Back to the 15 cost-benefit analysis, I would like that to be 16 clear for the whole system, and the South Boston 17 piece of the transitway be compared to whatever 18 cost-benefit analysis we are using in that 19 line. 20 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Anyone else? 21 Yes? 22 MR. MOLONEY: As the MBTA is 23 apparently very interested in terms of a goal of 24 preserving local business, I note the absence of MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 35 1 a goal, which would be to preserve or improve 2 the quality of residential life in Jamaica 3 Plain. And I wonder why that's missing from the 4 MBTA's goals. 5 MS. CLOHERTY: You can write it in, 6 can't you? 7 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: We will 8 definitely take it into consideration. 9 MR. MOLONEY: Can I have an answer 10 to that question? 11 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: We will take it 12 into consideration, whether that is an 13 appropriate goal. 14 Yes, sir? 15 MR. ROBERT BLACK: My name is Robert 16 Black. I live on 22 Asticou Road. 17 Has anybody done a study on how many 18 visitors might use the trolley line from Park 19 Street to, say, the Arboretum or Franklin Park, 20 and how many of those may stop off and use the 21 local businesses? Has there been a study on 22 that? 23 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I don't believe 24 there's a study per se, but there will be some MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 36 1 ridership analysis that will try to take that 2 into consideration, yes. 3 Yes, Mr. Ferris? 4 MR. FERRIS: Jeffrey Ferris. 5 Where does impact on bicycle riders 6 fall into this? Or does it need to be added 7 somewhere? 8 MS. BARROW: Personally I consider 9 them like an on-street vehicle, but it could be 10 more specific. So to me bicycles are another 11 thing in the street trying to move around, but 12 we can mention bikes. 13 MR. FERRIS: I would like to see it 14 specifically added. And there are actually pros 15 and cons of both sides. I mean the rails are 16 certainly a big hazard to cyclists. But also, a 17 moving vehicle, a bus pulling into a curb is 18 also a hazard. 19 And just sort of, aside from that, 20 there is a new Bikes and the MBTA committee 21 being formed. And one of the issues to be 22 addressed is better relations between the buses 23 and the bicycles. 24 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Thank you. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 37 1 Yes, sir? 2 MR. ALAN SMITH: Alan Smith, 2 3 Greenough Avenue. 4 Under objectives, I would like to 5 recommend that you add, increase or enhance the 6 speed of service. Where it says "increase 7 ridership, one-seat ride to Park Street, and 8 improve schedule reliability, improve passenger 9 comfort," a crucial factor is speed of service, 10 which is not there. Please put it there. 11 Thank you. 12 MS. BARROW: It's what's meant by 13 "shorten running time," but -- 14 MR. SMITH: Where is that? 15 MS. BARROW: "Shorten running 16 time." But we will take what you said under 17 consideration. 18 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes? 19 MR. MICHAEL REISKIND: Michael 20 Reiskind, 425 South Huntington Avenue. I have 21 four comments on this, mostly on the criteria. 22 The first one is in the third box, 23 where you say, "shorten running time," I don't 24 know what you mean by the running time. I would MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 38 1 assume, I think the more important thing is to 2 shorten the travel time to the passengers. But 3 running time and travel time are different. Can 4 you change it to "shorten travel time"? Is that 5 what you meant? 6 MS. BARROW: I would say they are 7 used synonymously here. 8 MR. REISKIND: Well, no. If you -- 9 running time does not include the time for 10 transfer, if you are only counting the running 11 times of the vehicles. The travel time -- 12 MS. BARROW: It was meant to capture 13 a trip length, which is the way the data feeds 14 into the -- 15 MR. REISKIND: For a passenger. 16 MS. BARROW: For a passenger. The 17 ridership model penalizes transfers. 18 MR. REISKIND: So, would you change 19 it to travel time? Is that yes? 20 MS. BARROW: I don't think that we 21 are saying right now which changes we are 22 making, but we will take that under 23 consideration. 24 MR. REISKIND: Well, I think it's -- MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 39 1 MS. BARROW: What I can tell you is 2 that it was meant to capture a travel time, 3 start-to-end travel time. 4 MR. REISKIND: Very good, because to 5 my mind they are very different, and it goes to 6 the crux of what we are trying to do. But 7 okay. So that's travel time, not running time. 8 The second thing, on the emergency 9 vehicles, if I could ask "avoid obstructions to 10 traffic flow" to be changed to "minimize 11 obstructions to traffic flow." Most of the 12 things you have say "minimize." I think each 13 alternative will have obstructions to traffic 14 flow. You can't avoid them. But we want to 15 compare them. So we would minimize obstructions 16 to traffic flow. 17 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: We can consider 18 that, yes. 19 MS. BARROW: You had four things, 20 and you are up to number two. 21 MR. REISKIND: And the third and 22 fourth are a little larger. When you say, in 23 the businesses you have, "minimize reductions to 24 existing parking, minimize disruption, minimize MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 40 1 the impact." Could we say -- nowhere is, and I 2 think it was said, I would like to say it again 3 -- nowhere is it said, increase the number of 4 shoppers in the local businesses. 5 You seem to be very negative. And I 6 think the number of shoppers and potential 7 shoppers with each alternative is important. 8 And you seem to be leaving that out. 9 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: We could 10 consider that, yes. 11 MR. REISKIND: And then the fourth 12 one is a question whether, when you talk about 13 system reliability and benefit-cost analysis, 14 whether you are looking at just capital costs or 15 whether you are looking at capital and 16 operations costs together. 17 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Both capital 18 and operations. 19 MR. REISKIND: I would urge you to 20 do that. 21 And one other thing. I presume 22 it's the whole line from Park Street to Forest 23 Hills, that you are looking at criteria there, 24 not just Heath Street. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 41 1 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes. 2 Yes? 3 MR. TOM CHILD: Tom Child, 75 St. 4 Alphonsus St. 5 My main concern in this thing is the 6 environmental impact. The air quality is one of 7 the aspects of that. And one of the aspects to 8 take into account is, buses use tires. They 9 only last so long. When a trolley wheel wears 10 out, they melt it down and they do something 11 else, and it probably goes back to a steel tire, 12 whereas tires from buses and cars are just 13 landfill. It's not a direct impact to this 14 community, but it is to some community 15 somewhere, that these tires are just piled up. 16 That's not mentioned here as an environmental 17 impact. 18 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes? 19 MS. CAROLYN MANSON: Carolyn 20 Manson. 21 I don't see any place up there about 22 fun. It's much more fun to ride the trolleys. 23 It really is. I mean, I ride them and I have a 24 good time. Now, when I ride the bus, I'm very MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 42 1 irritated, to tell you the truth. It isn't 2 fun. So I would like to have a fun ride at the 3 end of my hard day of work. 4 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes? 5 MS. CLOHERTY: On the CNG bus as 6 your alternative, you have very heavy vehicles 7 carrying that weight of the fuel around. The 8 damage to the infrastructure, in particular the 9 city's streets, is significant. So I would like 10 you to include the effect of your choice of 11 vehicle on the urban environment, on the city 12 streets. 13 And in addition to that impact, I 14 would like you to consider, as part of that air- 15 quality study, all that we learned about CNG 16 from the Arborway Community -- Arborway Yard 17 Community Planning Process. That CNG is -- just 18 because we can't see or smell the toxins, they 19 are there. And your study had best make that 20 information clearly available for the average 21 lay person to read and to understand, because 22 it's not as clean as some would have us 23 believe. 24 Greenhouse gas, that's the term. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 43 1 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes, sir? 2 MR. MARTIN FRANCIS: Martin Francis, 3 93 Westchester Road. 4 Two points. When the gentleman 5 spoke about wheels wearing down, they don't wear 6 down. I drove them for 30 plus years. When a 7 streetcar is going along and it stops short, and 8 the sand that's under the front seat shoots down 9 to stop the streetcar, it creates friction. The 10 tracks wear. And every once in a while you are 11 in a streetcar and you hear thump-thump-thump 12 and you say, "What the hell is that?" That 13 particular part of that wheel flattened out a 14 little bit. They take them back and they grind 15 them down just a fraction. They don't throw 16 wheels away. 17 MR. CHILD: Well, I'm talking about 18 the bus wheels. 19 MR. FRANCIS: Oh, okay. So we don't 20 throw the wheels away. 21 As far as, you used the word 22 "shorten the run time." When you use the word 23 "shorten the run time," you have to have a 24 point from which you are shortening it. What is MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 44 1 the time frame that you are trying to shorten it 2 from? Because there's no time frame that's 3 shorter than 30 minutes. And 30 minutes is the 4 running time from the Arborway, South Street, 5 South Huntington, to Park Street. 6 The T cannot tell these people that 7 there's any bus method, whether it's a straight 8 shot or a transfer shot, that's shorter than 30 9 minutes. So is 30 minutes the number you are 10 going to use, and then shorten it from there? 11 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I don't think 12 it's a matter of shortening. I think -- 13 MR. FRANCIS: The word is right 14 there, "shorten the running time." 15 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Your 16 observation will be compared to what you just 17 said. The bus would not be able to do so. So 18 if that's what it comes out, that will 19 definitely be one of the points, that the Green 20 Line is faster than the bus. So yes, that will 21 be part of the analysis. But we don't know what 22 it is until we do it. 23 Yes? 24 MS. BARBARA NUNEZ: My name is MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 45 1 Barbara Nunez. 2 I'm a community activist from 3 Mission Hill, and I have been involved with the 4 traffic for 12 years, right in front of Mission 5 Park, and from Brigham Circle to the Back of the 6 Hills apartments. And I got 840 signatures to 7 keep the Green Line going to Heath Street. And 8 the reason I did that is because we, the people, 9 think it is better for our health, it's better 10 for the women with kids going shopping, and so 11 forth. It's better for people when they get out 12 early in the morning to go to work. It's better 13 than taking a bus. 14 The bus cannot carry all the 15 people. And if the trolley stops -- how many 16 cars do we have? We have more and more cars. 17 We can always add to the trolley. 18 So we the people, we do need the 19 Green Line. And it should go to Forest Hills, 20 okay? It should go to Forest Hills. Why did 21 they stop the Green Line going to Forest Hills? 22 You say the people wanted the bus. No, it 23 wasn't the people that wanted the bus. It was 24 the politicians. Okay? MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 46 1 And that was -- I was surprised to 2 hear this. I'm like, oh, I was wondering about 3 this. But we know, we know that the trolley is 4 better than the bus. Okay? And that's what we 5 want. That's what we need. It's also better 6 for our health. Okay? 7 We do have a problem with people 8 getting off the trolley right there in the road 9 and everything, but it can be corrected. Okay? 10 If you guys wanted to correct it, you could 11 correct it. And we're fighting for that. 12 Okay? And 840 signatures should prove what the 13 people want. You hear what I'm saying? Eighty 14 hundred and forty signatures should prove what 15 the people want. It's better for the people, 16 and the environment. Okay? 17 The pollution we do not need. We 18 already have congestion, with Brookline traffic, 19 Francis Street traffic, Huntington Avenue 20 traffic, them three right there, and Tremont. 21 Okay? And Mission Park is surrounded with 22 that. Plus under-the-ground parking. So we are 23 polluted real bad. Okay? And we don't need any 24 more pollution. We don't need that. And we MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 47 1 would think that the people that we vote in 2 office should respect our need, that it's more 3 important for our health than their pocketbook. 4 Okay? Thank you. 5 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Thank you. 6 Yes? 7 MR. BLACK: Excuse me for being 8 slightly impertinent. It's become my moniker 9 these days. 10 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Could you state 11 your name, please? 12 MR. BLACK: My name is Robert Black, 13 22 Asicou Road. 14 Why has it taken 15 years? Why are 15 these answers not here now? 16 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: It would take 17 longer than what we have tonight to really deal 18 with that issue. 19 MR. BLACKSTONE: No, no, no, that 20 doesn't answer the question. Why has it taken 21 15 years to figure out what's the best trip to 22 Park Street? 23 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I don't have an 24 answer for you, sir. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 48 1 Yes? 2 MR. KURLAND: Jeff Kurland. 3 Barbara made a very good point, in 4 that it isn't just people from Jamaica Plain who 5 want to take the Arborway line into Boston. 6 It's people who want to live in town, like at 7 Mission Park, where my wife happens to work, who 8 would, if the trolley was running, be glad to 9 hop a trolley and do their shopping and go to 10 restaurants out in Jamaica Plain. Ditto for 11 people in the Back Bay, tourists in Park Street 12 and wherever. 13 And I just want to make sure that 14 your ridership studies -- and I might add that 15 these are people who would not take a bus to 16 Centre Street. Okay? I just want to make sure 17 that the ridership model that you use clearly 18 indicates the preference of people for rail 19 transit as opposed to bus. There's a definite 20 preference, and frankly I don't think it's in 21 your models. 22 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Thank you. 23 Yes? 24 MR. SMITH: Two things I don't see MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 49 1 there. My eyes are not as good as they used to 2 be, so if they are there, you please tell me. 3 One, the goal or the objective -- I 4 guess one of those two -- of removing the buses 5 and the bus stops from Heath Street to Park 6 Street. If we have a trolley, those would be 7 removed. You would have less buses from Heath 8 Street down to Park Street, and you would remove 9 all those bus stops. You have a trolley in the 10 reservation. So where would that go? 11 I'm sorry, I forget your name. 12 MS. BARROW: My name is Monica 13 Barrow. 14 MR. SMITH: Monica Barrow, where 15 would it go on those three boards? Goal, 16 objective or criteria? 17 MS. BARROW: Well, the goals, 18 objectives and criteria are what you would use 19 to compare two alternatives. What you just said 20 would not necessarily be -- what you just 21 described doesn't sound to me like a goal or 22 objective. 23 MR. SMITH: All right. I'll 24 describe it differently. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 50 1 MS. BARROW: It sounds like part of 2 the design. 3 MR. SMITH: I understand what you're 4 saying. 5 From a logical point of view, let 6 us say that, to reduce congestion on the streets 7 from Heath Street to Park Street, is that a 8 goal? 9 MS. BARROW: Sure. I mean, we 10 haven't made a distinction about reducing 11 congestion from one particular portion of the 12 corridor. 13 MR. SMITH: Well, it's still a goal. 14 MS. BARROW: I would say that the 15 goals and objectives that have to do with 16 improving access and avoiding obstructions to 17 traffic flow are meant to capture things like 18 congestion. But we could consider incorporating 19 what you just said and talk about it 20 specifically. 21 MR. SMITH: Okay. I have two more 22 points. And thank you for including that and 23 talking about that specifically. I think that's 24 important. I just wanted to make sure it's in MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 51 1 one of those boards. 2 The other point, as a goal or 3 objective, to reduce car traffic, to reduce 4 automobile traffic. And I believe that that is 5 a goal that would be more reachable with the 6 trolley. I think more people would get out of 7 their cars and take public transportation. 8 The reason I believe that is there 9 have been studies comparing ridership between 10 the time when we had a trolley to the time when 11 we had a bus, and ridership fell. So I'm not 12 imagining that. I think that's a very important 13 fact. And where would you put it in those three 14 white boards there? 15 MS. BARROW: When we would be 16 diverting people from autos to increased transit 17 usage, you would pick it up by the way the CTPS 18 ridership model shows, people shifting from one 19 mode to another. 20 MR. SMITH: Correct. But what about 21 the three boards? Where on those boards? 22 MS. BARROW: Increasing transit 23 usage and ridership and measuring number of 24 riders. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 52 1 MR. SMITH: All right. I think that 2 might warrant at least a parenthetical 3 statement, because this is important, and we do 4 have statistics about what happens to the 5 transit usage between trolleys and buses. 6 And just briefly two more things, 7 and I ask your indulgence, because this is a 8 repetition of what was said, but I want to 9 endorse it. 10 Number one, there should be a 11 "maximize" -- instead of all those "minimizes" 12 -- maximize customer access to the business 13 district, and I think that's very important. I 14 believe that people would come from other parts 15 of town more to the business district if they 16 had a trolley. And so instead of all those 17 "minimizes" -- or in addition to, if you love 18 those "minimizes," please add a "maximize access 19 to the business district." And that would go 20 under what you have there as -- is that preserve 21 -- 22 MS. BARROW: Preserve local 23 business. 24 MR. SMITH: I would even say enhance MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 53 1 local business. 2 MS. BARROW: Well, we have improved 3 access, but yes. 4 MR. SMITH: And just a final point. 5 And that is a point that was already made, and 6 again I ask your indulgence, and that is, to 7 improve the quality of residential life. That's 8 nowhere there. I want to second that. I think 9 that is a very important objective. 10 Jamaica Plain is a very -- it's a 11 neighborhood where people walk a lot, you know. 12 That's one of the beauties and one of the happy 13 characteristics of our neighborhood. And 14 improving the quality of residential life I 15 think is a very important criterion, and I would 16 like to see it on one of those three boards. 17 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Thank you. 18 The gentleman over there. I'd like 19 to get to people who haven't had a chance yet. 20 Yes, sir? 21 MR. LARRY CRONIN: My name is Larry 22 Cronin, 111 Perkins Street. 23 I'm chair of the Jamaica Plain 24 Neighborhood Council. And last night the MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 54 1 council voted again for the third time to 2 support the restoration of LRV service to the 3 Arborway line. We also voted to ask for a 4 comprehensive traffic study. I think the two go 5 hand in hand. But I think that streetcars are a 6 superior form of infrastructure. And there's no 7 reason why the people of Jamaica Plain should 8 have to settle for less. 9 (Applause) 10 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Thank you, sir. 11 MR. DAVID FARGEN: I'm David Fargen, 12 and I live in Back of the Hill. 13 And, Monica, I'm concerned about the 14 interpretation of the data that you received 15 from CTPS in particular, and how it's prepared. 16 I don't know if I want to really bring up the 17 LSTS study a couple of years ago that talked 18 about the trip distribution data, as well as the 19 air-quality mitigation data that was presented 20 or obtained from CTPS. The thing that I'm 21 concerned about is the analysis of that, that's 22 done by people of LSTS. And I'm concerned -- my 23 concern is ongoing, since LSTS is now a part of 24 SYSTRA -- or has been absorbed by SYSTRA? MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 55 1 MS. BARROW: It's a name change. 2 MR. FARGEN: Okay. So I just 3 wondered if the methodology is hopefully going 4 to change as well. 5 MS. BARROW: It's an application of 6 the data, which is -- 7 MR. FARGEN: I beg to differ. When 8 there are not significantly -- statistically 9 significant differences that are presented and 10 conclusions to the contrary are made, I think it 11 really underlies some credibility problems with 12 the analysis of the report. Few people will 13 stand behind that LSTS report, even at the T, I 14 suspect. 15 So I'm hopeful that, having said 16 that, that perhaps we are not just going to be, 17 you know -- a copy of a final report is just 18 going to be descended into our laps without us 19 having any sort of ability to maybe review for 20 content and accuracy this report. 21 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Thank you. 22 Yes? 23 MR. PAUL FAIRCLOTH: Paul Faircloth, 24 for the Jamaica Plain Gazette. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 56 1 Just for the comparison study, just 2 to get some things straight, is it LRV versus 3 40-foot CNG or 60-foot CNG, or does it include 4 both in the comparison? Or if you're not, why 5 not include the 40-foot? 6 MS. BARROW: They would both be 7 looked at. It's -- you have to deal with what 8 the ridership is and -- 9 MR. FAIRCLOTH: The 60-foot CNG, is 10 that, you know, commonplace in North America? 11 And if not, why are the other municipalities not 12 purchasing and using such vehicles? 13 MS. BARROW: The 60-foot CNG is not 14 common. It's technologically harder to 15 manufacture and build, and not every place needs 16 a 60-foot bus. But more and more major cities, 17 New York, in addition to Boston -- I'm familiar 18 with New York more -- are looking to it. And it 19 is a vehicle that the T has on order. 20 MR. FAIRCLOTH: And when doing the 21 comparison, a major part of that is air 22 quality. Just speaking with some of the bus 23 manufacturers, actually the one that the T has 24 the order with, I mean, he said that to compare, MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 57 1 you know, the air quality, you have to use a 2 computer-generated model, since the engine being 3 used has never been used in an articulated bus. 4 So it's kind of a new thing. 5 So to kind of use a technology not 6 -- that's really out there in a vacuum, is that 7 really tangible? Can we compare it to -- can it 8 be accurately compared to, say, the tangible 9 facts about light rail emissions? 10 MS. BARROW: Well, you have the 11 specs and you have the models. That's what you 12 have to use. If you don't have -- 13 MS. MANSON: You have the 14 compressors, too, which are something that -- 15 MS. BARROW: I mean the 16 specifications between the T and the 17 manufacturer, which specifies what level -- 18 MS. MANSON: You still have to be 19 honest. They aren't fueled easily compared to 20 electric. 21 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes? 22 MR. ROHRLICH: I want to make sure I 23 heard correctly. Did you say that this study 24 will compare LRV with two different vehicles, MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 58 1 the 40-foot CNG and the 60-foot CNG? Did you 2 say that? 3 MS. BARROW: What I said was that 4 the ridership forecasts will dictate what size 5 vehicle makes sense for the service. 6 MR. ROHRLICH: You know, I can't 7 help saying that 15 years after the T has 8 suspended service, it still hasn't made up its 9 mind what the proposed alternative is. I think 10 it's just ludicrous to be involved in a process 11 -- I mean, we are being treated like 12 imbeciles. 13 If you come to us and say, 15 years 14 after you've suspended service and two days 15 before you have to recommend your alternative to 16 DEP, you don't know what vehicle you are 17 proposing to compare with LRV, I think that's a 18 disgrace. I don't know how else to put it. 19 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes, sir. You 20 haven't talked yet. 21 MR. SRDJAN NEDELJKOVIC: My name is 22 Serge Nedeljkovic, and I have been here before. 23 I'm from Newton. 24 I would like to make some MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 59 1 suggestions for goals and objectives, some of 2 which I think have already been said, but 3 nonetheless, an important goal many people share 4 is to reduce vehicular traffic demand. And this 5 is something that involves improving access for 6 people, decreasing the need for automobile 7 reliability and decreasing the need for 8 automobile parking, which is a big problem. So 9 there's a difference in improving the capacity 10 of the line versus reducing travel demand. And 11 I think the studies have shown that light rail 12 transit actually can help decrease traffic 13 demand in and of itself. 14 And I am also under the impression 15 that there's a mandate that any roadway 16 reconstruction project, studies held that the 17 project would minimize traffic demand. And so 18 whatever is happening on this roadway, it is a 19 roadway construction project anyway. 20 The second point I would like to 21 bring out, or the second goal, would be 22 increasing benefits to the local economy. Not 23 only maintaining the economy currently there, 24 but actually attracting businesses, attracting MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 60 1 customers, increasing the economics and the 2 community vitality of the entire corridor. And 3 that includes providing these businesses with a 4 diverse pool of employees from other parts of 5 the city, which I think is a goal that would be 6 important. 7 And then finally, one of the goals 8 that can be integrated into this whole 9 discussion is the issue of the redevelopment of 10 former industrial sites, brownfields, et cetera, 11 as an opportunity to create further affordable 12 housing. Everyone knows that there's an 13 affordable-housing crisis in the city, and there 14 are such sites in this neighborhood as far as 15 I'm aware. And that's about it. 16 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Thank you. 17 Yes, sir? 18 MR. ROBIN KOBEL: My name is Robin 19 Kobel, and I'm from Belmont. 20 I particularly like the idea of the 21 one-seat ride, because that's going to be a way 22 to get people out of their cars. And I haven't 23 thought this through, but I see that if you got 24 a one-seat ride to Park Street, could that be -- MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 61 1 a consideration be given to extending that to 2 North Station? Because that would then make it 3 possible for people from the northern suburbs to 4 make a single transfer and get on this line and 5 come out to Franklin Park and the arboretum, 6 which are popular destinations. And that would 7 cut back on a lot of suburbanites driving 8 through the neighborhood. 9 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Thank you. 10 Someone who hasn't spoken? Yes, sir? 11 MR. BILL MITCHELL: My name is Bill 12 Mitchell. I live on Williams Street in Jamaica 13 Plain. 14 I have a lot of trouble with long 15 answers, so I'm really not quite following how 16 the study is going to be structured. Are you 17 going to study light rail, 60-foot CNG and 18 40-foot CNG, and compare them for all these 19 objectives, goals and criteria? 20 MS. BARROW: Yes. 21 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: It goes to what 22 we said before. They are going to do a 23 ridership analysis, see what the ridership would 24 be. If the ridership is heavy, they are going MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 62 1 to have to suggest a 60-footer to deal with how 2 heavy it is. If it's not heavy, they will 3 suggest a 40-footer. But it will be a 4 comparison between the light rail and the CNG. 5 Whether it will be 60 or 40 will depend on the 6 ridership that comes out of the ridership 7 projections. That's what the analysis will be. 8 MR. MITCHELL: Have you ordered or 9 have you been authorized to order the 60-foot 10 buses? 11 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: We have ordered 12 the ones for Washington Street. Yes, we have 13 ordered some. 14 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. But you 15 haven't ordered any for this particular line? 16 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Not that I'm 17 aware of. 18 MR. MITCHELL: And for 40-foot CNG 19 buses, have you ordered or been authorized to 20 order 40-foot buses to be used on this line? 21 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: We ordered some 22 CNG buses, but I don't know if they have been 23 allocated to a particular line as of yet. 24 MR. MITCHELL: How many? MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 63 1 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: It was a 2 hundred twenty-four? 3 MS. BARROW: Yes. 4 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: A hundred 5 twenty-four. 6 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you. 7 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes. Someone 8 who hasn't spoken. Yes, ma'am? 9 MS. ELIZABETH FIXLER: Elizabeth 10 Fixler, merchant. 11 As far as ridership figures, my 12 understanding is that a 40-foot bus carries 13 about 58 to 60 people and that a 60-foot would 14 carry about 80 people. A trolley carries a 15 hundred seventy. If I take, between seven and 16 nine o'clock in the morning, let's call it six- 17 minute trips just for -- six-minute lead times, 18 just to take a number -- that's ten trips an 19 hour, 20 between seven and nine o'clock. 20 Now, I stand to be corrected, but my 21 math says if you've got 60 people on a 40-foot 22 bus, 20 trips, you've got about 12 hundred 23 people you can take from this area through, 24 let's say, to downtown. If you have a 60-foot MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 64 1 bus and 80 passengers times 20 trips, that holds 2 16 hundred people. 3 Having looked at these vehicles 4 going by now, packed like sardines, especially 5 between seven and nine and four and six, there 6 is no increased capacity available on existing 7 vehicles. So it makes no sense to continue it. 8 Light rail, at a hundred seventy 9 times 20, is about 34 hundred people you can 10 take downtown in the morning between seven and 11 nine. The difference is almost three times the 12 number of a 40-foot bus, and certainly more than 13 twice the number on a 60-foot bus. 14 If we are looking for a mode that 15 will carry more people in reality, which means 16 more open space to get onto a vehicle, if we 17 want people to look at it as a comfort zone to 18 get out of their vehicles, if you want something 19 that won't be obsolete when we buy it and put it 20 in place, the option seems clear. 21 And as a merchant looking at the 22 numbers, I certainly would like 34 hundred 23 people coming to my store as opposed to 12 24 hundred. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 65 1 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: That will be 2 part of the analysis and the ridership. It 3 will. 4 Yes? You haven't talked, sir. Yes? 5 MR. TOBIAS JOHNSON: Hi there. 6 Tobias Johnson, Gay Head Street, Jamaica Plain. 7 I would like to mention that I came 8 here on a bus this evening from the Longwood 9 Avenue stop packed like a sardine during rush 10 hour, and it took nearly 40 minutes on the 39, 11 just that short distance. 12 I'm really -- and the reason why I 13 came here tonight was so that I could see, after 14 a 15-year wait, and thank goodness I haven't 15 waited the entire 15 years -- the alternatives 16 that the MBTA and the EOTC are proposing for 17 this line. It's either light rail, if not found 18 infeasible, or an alternative. 19 I haven't seen an alternative. And 20 the fact that you are standing up there saying, 21 "Well, depending on what the ridership might 22 be" -- if you don't know the ridership on this 23 line after 15 years, I have to echo my friend 24 David Rohrlich in saying that it's simply MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 66 1 disgraceful and pathetic. 2 And to stand up there and to say -- 3 to point to "maintain or improve business 4 access," and the first word out of your mouth is 5 "additional parking," I mean, come on. All of 6 this belies the fact that the T is groping 7 around for some sort of substitute, be it flying 8 saucer or airplane, to, simply to get out of 9 restoring light rail. 10 Where are your priorities? Your 11 priorities should be to the riders, the people 12 every day who do not own cars or wish to give up 13 their car or second car and take public 14 transportation. Your priority, your mandate 15 should be to provide them with the best quality 16 public transportation that you can. That's what 17 we want to see on this line from Forest Hills to 18 Park Street, is quality public transportation. 19 And it's pathetic. 20 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes, sir? 21 MR. GEORGE Z: George Z. I live on 22 Chestnut. 23 I can't agree more with Tobias in 24 feeling insulted that you can stand here and say MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 67 1 you are going to do a ridership study. 2 But I do want to ask one other 3 question. Did I hear you say that you think 4 that the 60-foot bus on order for Washington 5 Street is the same bus you would use on the 39? 6 I thought that bus was a particular bus that can 7 go and be electrified to go in that transitway. 8 Am I wrong in that? 9 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: That's a 10 different vehicle. 11 MR. Z: So that bus that's on order 12 is not in service anywhere in North America. Is 13 that correct? It does not exist? 14 MS. BARROW: Not in the United 15 States. 16 MR. Z: So we are going to commit to 17 a vehicle that doesn't exist, that there has 18 been no revenue service, that it's completely 19 experimental, and it has never been built yet? 20 Isn't that what you are saying? That you're 21 going to compare something that is already 22 proven, we have the infrastructure and so forth 23 for the LRV's, but you are going to commit to a 24 vehicle that does not exist. And I just think MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 68 1 that is another insult. 2 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: You haven't 3 spoken yet. Yes, sir. 4 MR. FRANK STONE: My name is Frank 5 Stone. I'm here because of mail I received at 6 my home. 7 Way back when somebody brought up 8 the issue of opposing what the MBTA was going to 9 do, I made the effort of writing a letter. And 10 since then you folks have kept me apprised of 11 the meetings and the communication to yourself. 12 The thing that stimulated me to come 13 tonight was the receipt of two pieces of 14 information, one from the fire commissioner and 15 one from the police commissioner, both of whom 16 took the position they didn't want to see light 17 rail put back into Jamaica Plain, and they said, 18 because of safety reasons. 19 Now, when I moved to Jamaica Plain I 20 had a full head of hair. 21 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: When I took 22 this job, I did, too. 23 (Laughter) 24 MR. STONE: And we had a light rail MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 69 1 system. And it was taken out of service because 2 the MBTA decided to impose its will on the 3 community. The community went into a small 4 scale revolt, got it on a ballot, won the ballot 5 question, and it didn't make any difference. 6 All right? 7 Now I have a police commissioner 8 writing to me, and a fire commissioner writing 9 to me, and you forwarding a copy of that to me 10 at my house, saying to us that there's a safety 11 reason for us to not have the light rail back in 12 town. 13 My response to that is, if the 14 policemen lived in the city of Boston, they 15 would know the streets of Jamaica Plain. They 16 would know how to get to wherever the hell it 17 was they were going and avoid Centre Street, if 18 it happened to be a bottleneck. The same way 19 with firemen. 20 My view is there's many, many 21 firemen, and there are many, many policemen, who 22 are breaching their contract with the city by 23 living outside the city, and the only street 24 they know is Centre Street. And that's not the MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 70 1 only way to get to a fire or to get to a crime. 2 We need to bring back the light 3 rail. We need to take the community at its word 4 and accept the vote that was cast years ago. 5 Put it back in place, use it. It was a 6 comfortable means of transportation, it was an 7 economical means of transportation, and it 8 should never have gone out of service. 9 (Applause) 10 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes? 11 MR. NATHAN: David Nathan, 263 12 Chestnut Avenue, Jamaica Plain. 13 I just want to reiterate what I 14 heard three or four other people say. Depending 15 on how you use those objectives and criteria in 16 rating LRV's versus the alternatives, you can 17 skew things dramatically. There's a -- there's 18 a couple of assumptions that can be very fatal. 19 One of the assumptions is that anything that 20 impedes automobile traffic is inherently bad, in 21 that automobile traffic always has the 22 right-of-way. Pedestrians, bicyclists and 23 public transit riders, their needs are purely 24 secondary to those that happen to own and drive MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 71 1 motor vehicles. 2 Now, I think everyone -- it should 3 be a level playing field, and that should be 4 reflected in the criteria. So that wherever you 5 have a criterion, one of whose objectives is do 6 anything to avoid obstructing traffic, avoid -- 7 I mean, try to minimize impact on traffic, as 8 opposed to giving public transit preeminent 9 access to the public ways, or at least equal 10 access -- there's obviously a bias, inherent 11 bias there. So there should be an equal playing 12 field. 13 There's also I think an underlying 14 assumption about the nature of public 15 transportation in general. Now, for some reason 16 automobile transportation is considered 17 inherently good and an American right, God- 18 given. But for those that ride public 19 transportation, they have to settle for some 20 inferior form of transportation that is 21 considered a necessary evil that obstructs 22 people that drive cars. 23 So that's reflected in the criteria 24 when you talk about minimizing obstructions, MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 72 1 minimizing negative effects on businesses, 2 minimizing effects on neighborhood quality of 3 life. Whereas you can take the same assumption, 4 turn it around and say, public transportation 5 can be an unmitigated public good that enhances 6 access to businesses, enhances access of all the 7 citizens to traveling anywhere in the 8 metropolitan area. 9 It's not a question of minimizing a 10 necessary evil, but maximizing the positive good 11 of a system that should be available to all 12 citizens, regardless of their resources to own 13 and operate a motor vehicle. We need a level 14 playing field when it comes to the criteria in 15 judging vehicles. 16 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes? 17 MR. FAIRCLOTH: Just a point of 18 clarification. Before, you were mentioning the 19 buses that the T has on order, and you said you 20 believe that they have 60-foot buses for the 21 transitway but -- 22 MS. BARROW: Not the transitway. 23 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: No, not the 24 transitway. Washington Street. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 73 1 MR. FAIRCLOTH: Right. Sure. 2 Just speaking with -- I have to 3 write a story about this -- but just speaking 4 with the bus manufacturers, Neoplan and North 5 American Bus Industries, North American Bus 6 Industries said they had a contract as of 7 December 2000 for a hundred twenty-four, which 8 means -- 9 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes. 10 MR. FAIRCLOTH: With an option for 11 an additional a hundred twenty-four. 12 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes. 13 MR. FAIRCLOTH: Neoplan said they 14 have a contract as of December for I think it's 15 44 low-floor CNG articulated buses, the 60-foot 16 variety. You said you didn't think there was 17 such an order for articulated -- 18 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I didn't say 19 that, no. I said that there was one for 20 Washington Street. Yes, there is. 21 MR. FAIRCLOTH: Okay, but that's 22 dual mode rather than -- 23 MS. BARROW: No, no. 24 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: No, there's two MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 74 1 different modes. You're getting confused 2 between the transitway, which has a dual mode 3 electric and diesel, and Washington Street, 4 which is strictly CNG. There's two different 5 vehicles. 6 MR. FAIRCLOTH: So which are the 7 ones that the board recently approved 24 of, and 8 they are going to talk about eight more in 9 April? Just for clarification. 10 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I'm not sure 11 which ones you are talking about. You've got me 12 confused, too. 13 MR. FAIRCLOTH: Just speaking with, 14 you know -- 15 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Twenty-four, 16 what size? 17 MR. FAIRCLOTH: Sixty-foot, for -- 18 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Are they dual 19 mode or CNG? 20 MR. FAIRCLOTH: Dual mode. 21 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Dual mode, that 22 would be the transitway. Definitely the 23 transitway. 24 MR. FAIRCLOTH: So no buses have MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 75 1 been ordered, again, for, you know, this -- 2 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: There has been 3 -- not for this. 4 MS. BARROW: Not for Arborway. 5 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: It has been 6 ordered for Washington Street, not for 7 Arborway. 8 MR. FAIRCLOTH: So the 44 are for 9 Washington Street? 10 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes. 11 MR. FAIRCLOTH: And the 24 that the 12 board approved -- 13 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: It's for the 14 transitway. 15 MR. FAIRCLOTH: For the transitway. 16 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: If that's what 17 -- whoever was giving those numbers, yes, that 18 would be accurate. 19 Yes? 20 MR. SALIMBENE: I can tell you, the 21 answer to that question is somewhat misleading. 22 Of the 44 buses that have -- the 44 low-floor 23 60-foot CNG buses that you just referred to, if 24 you take the total number of buses that the MBTA MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 76 1 would need to run rush-hour service on the 2 Arborway line, and you added it to the total 3 number of buses the T needs to run on Washington 4 Street from Dudley into town, you come up with 5 the 44. 6 So the fact that they are not 7 identifying those additional buses -- they don't 8 need all 44 for Washington Street. The fact 9 that they don't identify those buses as being 10 Arborway buses is not necessarily the 11 determining factor as to where they are going to 12 be used. 13 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes? Someone 14 who hasn't spoken yet. Yes? 15 MR. DEACON: On this study, in past 16 studies comparing buses to LRV on various 17 corridors, not just the Arborway corridor, one 18 of the things that you have done is you make 19 assumptions and you plug them into a computer 20 model and it spits out. So it's important that 21 the assumptions you make reflect adequately the 22 comparisons you are trying to make. 23 And one of the things that has been 24 done in the past is to assume, because an LRV is MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 77 1 longer and can hold more passengers, it will run 2 less frequently than a 40-foot bus. So if you 3 plug in ten minutes for an LRV and three minutes 4 for a bus, then your ridership for LRV drops, 5 and your ridership for a bus goes up. But that 6 doesn't reflect the real world, but it's a kind 7 of a Simple Simon computer model. 8 So it's important that the 9 assumptions reflect true comparisons. So for 10 LRV, are the headways, the times between 11 vehicles, going to be the same for the bus as 12 for light rail, to reflect that. So if you do a 13 comparison for ridership purposes, and you say 14 the bus is going to run every three minutes, and 15 you do a ridership comparison with an LRV, 16 saying that the LRV's will run every three 17 minutes too. 18 Ridership shouldn't determine the 19 mode you should use, you know. It's strictly 20 across the board. And it's a combination of 21 things that gets you to a true ridership 22 figure. So you have to use different modes and 23 compare them, but you have to use -- you have to 24 keep certain things constant. And headway is MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 78 1 certainly one of the things you have to keep 2 constant. 3 In past studies the MBTA and CTPS 4 have done different headway calculations, and 5 that has skewed the results. So is that 6 something that's going to be done as part of 7 this? 8 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Actually the 9 DEP had suggested that we do some shorter 10 headways than what was done in the past. So we 11 are going to do a number of them, and that's why 12 we asked SYSTRA to do the study in some 13 respects, because they had done a complete 14 modeling of the Green Line. 15 So we're going to be looking at 16 six-minute headways, seven-minute headways and 17 eight-minute headways, to see the impact that it 18 has. Because DEP thought that there could be 19 those kinds of algebraic relationships you just 20 talked about. So we will look at that in that 21 context, similar to what we were saying before 22 about -- 23 MR. DEACON: For each mode. 24 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Pardon me? MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 79 1 MR. DEACON: For each mode. So if 2 you do six minutes for a bus, you have to do six 3 minutes for -- 4 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Well, I think 5 we're talking more on the Green Line. I think 6 the bus wouldn't have those kinds of long 7 headways, because they normally don't. But from 8 the Green Line -- 9 MR. DEACON: If we are trying to get 10 to a ridership number, and you use two different 11 headways, then you are going to come out with 12 radically different numbers. So if you do three 13 minutes for a bus and ten minutes for an LRV, 14 based on the fact that an LRV is larger, 15 although comparable headways on the other Green 16 Line branches might be less -- this was done on 17 the replacement service study with much longer 18 headways than were running even on other Green 19 Line branches you put in. So obviously the 20 ridership kind of went down, because you are 21 doing a simple model and you're using oddball 22 assumptions. 23 So if you do ten minutes for light 24 rail -- MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 80 1 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: We wouldn't be 2 doing that. 3 MR. DEACON: Then you have to do ten 4 minutes for the bus. If you do three minutes 5 for light rail, you do three minutes for a bus. 6 So you have to do it across the board, and this 7 has to be done. Otherwise the study is not 8 worth anything. 9 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Well, I can 10 tell you right now, you are not going to have 11 three-minute headways for light rail. It's just 12 not going to be that. 13 MR. DEACON: But if you don't have 14 three minute -- are you going to have 15 three-minute headways for the buses? 16 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: That may be one 17 of the things. They have three-minute headways 18 now. Or four-minute headways. I mean, really, 19 three or four minutes. They have different 20 headways because they have different modes. I'm 21 not sure how you are going to say we are going 22 to have a bus that comes every ten minutes 23 because we're going to do the same thing -- I 24 mean, you have to have -- MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 81 1 MR. DEACON: You have to do 2 comparable headways for other Green Line 3 branches you have to do out here. 4 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I agree. 5 MR. DEACON: But you can't use 6 headways that don't make any sense on the other 7 Green Line branches. 8 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I agree. We 9 are going to do that. 10 MR. DEACON: Okay. And then you 11 also have to get to some idea -- all right, so 12 maybe you are not going to run light rail 13 vehicles every three minutes. Maybe you think 14 that's impossible or can't be done. So that's 15 questionable, to have light rail vehicles every 16 three minutes. But I think you really have to 17 be very careful, in doing these comparisons, 18 that you are comparing apples and apples and 19 oranges and oranges. 20 And if you have to bring the light 21 rail down to five minutes and bring the bus up 22 to five minutes to get some idea of what you are 23 doing -- so people can see the changes in 24 ridership when the headways go up and when the MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 82 1 headways go down. Not that you are ever going 2 to run a light rail every half a minute, or a 3 bus every half a minute. But you should do a 4 range, so that people can see there's a definite 5 correlation between the headways and the 6 ridership, among other assumptions, one-seat 7 one-ride, total travel time down the corridor, 8 among other things. 9 Now, I was late this evening, and I 10 just wanted to mention why. It turned out the 11 longest part of the trip -- I got the 39 down at 12 Copley Square -- was actually not between 13 Brigham Circle and here, where the bus moved 14 along fairly rapidly, but it was between Copley 15 Square and Brigham Circle. The traffic for 16 reasons unknown moved very, very slowly and the 17 bus just sat for long periods of time. And in 18 fact, I was reflecting on this meeting when I 19 was sitting on Huntington Avenue beyond 20 Northeastern, where the streetcars were blasting 21 along on the reservation, because of course they 22 didn't have to deal with the same traffic 23 congestion as the bus. 24 So that assumption needs to be MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 83 1 brought in. It's very important for purposes of 2 this study that the impact on the traffic flow, 3 on air quality and on everything else, total 4 travel time and everything else, has to be 5 adequately captured for the bus option between 6 Park Street and here. 7 And just one other question. Where 8 is the bus supposed to turn around on Park 9 Street? 10 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: We haven't 11 gotten that far. 12 (Laughter.) 13 There has to be a service plan that 14 would show what that would be. 15 MR. DEACON: I'm sorry? 16 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: There has to be 17 a service plan developed that would show what 18 that would be. 19 MR. DEACON: So you don't have a 20 service plan? So you have no idea how you are 21 going to get the bus around? 22 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: It's being 23 developed as we speak. 24 MR. DEACON: You must have some MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 84 1 options. I mean, you must know some options. 2 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes. What 3 would you like to talk about? 4 MR. DEACON: I'm just curious. How 5 would you get the bus to Park Street? 6 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: It is being 7 evaluated. 8 MR. DEACON: I mean, there must be 9 some discussion about how you would do that if 10 it's being evaluated. 11 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes, there is. 12 MR. DEACON: Well, can't you give us 13 just some idea? 14 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: No, I can't, 15 because it's not my responsibility. That's 16 service planning, and they are doing it. And I 17 don't want to overstep what they are working 18 on. But thank you very much. We will try to 19 take that into consideration. 20 MR. DEACON: Just put the laughter 21 in the minutes, too. Don't forget the laughter. 22 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Okay, Mr. 23 Salimbene? 24 MR. SALIMBENE: Before I make my MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 85 1 comments, Dennis, just to you, again, as I told 2 you at the very first meeting, I don't want you 3 to feel that you're under attack or anything or 4 that anything that is said is meant personally 5 to you. You are doing a very difficult job. 6 And you might not be happy with a lot of the 7 comments that are being made tonight, but please 8 don't take them personally. 9 I think that John's comments, that 10 John's question about comparison is really 11 important. It does strike one as unfair if you 12 don't compare headways that are equivalent -- 13 and headways are important, because, as you 14 know, they in a sense run ridership. That's the 15 length of time between one vehicle to the next 16 vehicle. 17 Otherwise you end up with what 18 happened the last time that this consultant 19 company did their study, which was in 1999. In 20 1999 when this company did this study, they 21 compared four-minute headways for buses to 22 eight-minute headways for light rail, and they 23 came up with the result that everybody had 24 expected, that the ridership on the bus was MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 86 1 going to be higher. 2 The point that Mr. Fargen mentioned 3 earlier about the model and the way it's run, 4 and how the analysis is done, is also a very 5 important question. And I think it was directed 6 at whether we are going to have a different 7 approach to this study than we had in the last 8 study, because the analysis that was done in the 9 1999 report was pretty much rejected out of hand 10 by DEP as being inadequate. 11 And yet I must say, in looking at 12 the list of goals and objectives, if anybody in 13 this room picked up a copy of the 1999 study and 14 read it, written by this consulting company, 15 they would have seen exactly that outline in 16 exactly that language. 17 So the question as to whether or not 18 we are engaging in a new study or whether we are 19 just doing this as window dressing for purposes 20 of the DEP I think is an important question in 21 my mind. 22 Now, having said that as a preface, 23 I have a number of points here that I just 24 wanted to refer to or comment on. Regarding MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 87 1 running time or trip time or travel time, the 2 study that was done in 1999 said that running 3 time from Arborway to Copley Square by bus was 4 33 -- about 33 and a couple of seconds over 5 minutes, 33, 33 point 5 minutes. Trip time for 6 light rail, Arborway to Park Street, was 28 7 point 5 minutes. It's an interesting -- it's a 8 significant difference, I think, in running 9 time. And so that actually has been done. You 10 will do it again and maybe come up with 11 different numbers, I don't know. 12 I'm happy to know that we are 13 talking about CNG, although we are not sure what 14 type CNG it is, and we're not even sure where 15 it's going to run and what the route is going to 16 be downtown. It makes it difficult for me to 17 understand what you are proposing in terms of a 18 comparison. 19 Again, coming back to light rail to 20 Park Street, equivalent headways, there should 21 be the same number of stops. Mr. Prince has 22 talked about bus rapid transit, saying that bus 23 rapid transit is simply an alternative type of 24 rapid transit and it's run like rapid transit. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 88 1 The number of stops that you propose with regard 2 to the light rail, which I think Mr. Gallagher 3 presented the last time, that number of stops 4 and those general locations ought to be the 5 number of stops that you use with regard to your 6 alternative. Otherwise, again, you are not 7 really comparing equivalencies; you are 8 comparing different things. 9 With regard to maximizing access to 10 the business district, I think when everybody in 11 this room heard that, they thought, "Oh, that's 12 Centre Street." And I'm sure that that's what 13 the consultant was thinking. But the Arborway 14 route is a route from Jamaica Plain to 15 downtown. And there ought to be included here 16 some analysis of access to all of the business 17 districts along the entire route as a result of 18 the transit mode. 19 So what is the access for people who 20 live in Jamaica Plain to go shopping at 21 Filene's, which is a business district on the 22 route, or at least in the Back Bay, as well as 23 access to the local business district. Because 24 the route is from Arborway to Park Street, and MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 89 1 DEP I think made it clear that you need to think 2 about that. 3 One last thing, I have a handout 4 tonight, as I did the last time, and I ask your 5 indulgence. Quite a bit of study has been done 6 on the CNG bus as part of the MBTA's April 2000 7 review by a company called Booze, Allen and 8 Hamilton. And just so, with that, we understand 9 what the comparisons are with regard to CNG and 10 diesel, which is what we currently have, these 11 are taken from the Booze-Allen study. And if we 12 are not going to have any real discussion about 13 the type of vehicles and the pollution factor, I 14 thought you might be interested in some of these 15 statistics. 16 Air comparison, air-quality 17 comparison, diesel to CNG -- the question is, is 18 CNG better? Now, in some neighborhoods it may 19 well be. But in terms of pollution, the CNG bus 20 that was test-studied by the MBTA earlier this 21 year and compared to diesel and a few other 22 alternatives shows that, for example, with 23 regard to noise, community noise, that the CNG 24 buses being proposed for purchase are in a few MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 90 1 instances -- actually in every instance except 2 one, they exceed the maximum industry guidelines 3 for noise pollution in the community along the 4 route. 5 With regard to pollutants, there was 6 a great and timely editorial in the Boston Globe 7 on Sunday about global warming and the massive 8 input of carbon into the atmosphere. And if you 9 look at the air pollution statistics comparing 10 diesel with CNG -- and by the way, I'm certainly 11 not advocating diesel, and I think people know 12 that -- you will see that carbon dioxide, carbon 13 monoxide and hydrocarbons are much higher with 14 the CNG bus than they are with diesel. 15 And those are considerations I think 16 that need to be at least known, if the bus we 17 are thinking about as the alternative is the 18 CNG. 19 Lastly, and most importantly, with 20 regard to reliability of service, because that's 21 another factor -- and perhaps that's something 22 that maybe you would add to your board. Another 23 factor that has an impact on ridership is the 24 reliability of the vehicle. And comparing MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 91 1 reliability of CNG as a service vehicle, getting 2 people back and forth every day from where they 3 want to go, and comparing it to diesel, when 4 Booze-Allen did the MBTA study, they concluded 5 that CNG buses suffered nearly ten times as many 6 breakdowns or road calls as the MBTA's 7 five-year-old diesel buses. 8 The new CNG bus is actually breaking 9 down ten more times -- rather, ten times as 10 much. And they gave the comparison. They said 11 that the mean miles between breakdowns for CNG 12 buses were 950, whereas they were 18 hundred for 13 diesel. 14 Further, CNG buses are less 15 fuel-efficient. If you think about the use of 16 fossil fuel, which gas is, natural gas is, they 17 use in equivalent terms twice the amount of fuel 18 to travel the same distance. So this is all in 19 the MBTA study. 20 And the study concludes by saying 21 that CNG is a bridge technology. And they 22 actually look to maybe five to seven years from 23 now, when there will be an even more fuel- 24 efficient diesel that will outperform CNG. And MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 92 1 we have this commitment to CNG as the answer to 2 -- the transit solution for Jamaica Plain. 3 I don't -- in conclusion, and I 4 really appreciate your letting me do this -- in 5 conclusion, I don't know that we really ought to 6 put a lot of stock in the analysis that's about 7 to be done. I think if we go back and read the 8 1999 study that DEP rejected, we will probably 9 be reading the prototype of the 2001 study that 10 they will submit in a couple of months. And I 11 don't know that any of these statistics will 12 appear in that study. 13 Thanks. 14 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes, ma'am? 15 MS. NUNEZ: What I want to say is 16 this. I assume most of you ride the cars or the 17 public transportation. And I'm speaking of what 18 happened in South Huntington, in that road 19 structure there, how it got so bad that it was a 20 disgrace, it was a disgrace for the community, 21 the people that used the public transportation 22 and all that. How come nothing happened for 23 repairs in that road at South Huntington for 20 24 years? MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 93 1 Now, this is one of the things that 2 we also want to say to you. We need -- there is 3 a budget you have for repairing these roads and 4 tracks. And we would like for that budget to be 5 used for that, nothing else but for keeping up 6 our tracks and roads. Okay? This is a need. A 7 must-be. This is something we really are 8 asking, we are pressing on. 9 We also, the thing with -- like I 10 have been out there blowing my whistle, doing 11 traffic, do traffic myself, on my own. Okay? 12 For the respect of a human life. For the 13 respect of life. Like the man was saying, the 14 motorists get more respect than the pedestrians 15 that's crossing the street, or kids. You know 16 what I'm saying? I have been out there, I have 17 seen kids hit. I have seen people hit by cars. 18 It is not a joke. A life is more important I 19 believe than a car. And I think we get less 20 respect. 21 There was a time when it was a 22 fine. The fine was a hundred dollars or 23 something, to pass a trolley. And it went down 24 to 35 dollars. Thirty-five dollars, do you hear MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 94 1 what I'm saying? That's what your life -- they 2 thought a life -- when somebody, a car hits you, 3 you know, or passes you when you are getting off 4 the trolley, the fine went down to 35 dollars. 5 Less than going through a red light. Going 6 through a red light was more important than a 7 human life. You understand what I'm saying? 8 And this is what I'm saying. The 9 work I do is for the respect of a life. And 10 respect of a life, it seems like somebody forgot 11 that. Okay? Money has been put in place of -- 12 what people have has been put in place of 13 respect of life, and that's something we need to 14 focus on. Okay? We might not be a millionaire, 15 but you still need to have respect for people 16 that's not millionaires, too, you know. 17 Because we are also a majority that 18 keeps this world rotating. We keep this world 19 rotating. We are out there doing heavy labor 20 work, you know what I'm saying? Give us some 21 respect. Give us some respect. And do 22 something about that traffic system, enforcing 23 that traffic. And that's also part of the 24 MBTA's responsibility, the human life. You hear MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 95 1 what I'm saying? 2 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes. Thank 3 you. 4 Yes? 5 MR. KURLAND: I would like the 6 ridership model that you are going to use for 7 the study to be made a matter of public record. 8 I specifically want to see how the ridership 9 model measures the preference of riders for rail 10 versus bus, all other things being equal. And 11 it's very important that we have this ridership 12 model so that we can essentially audit your 13 conclusions. Because right now you are just 14 saying, "Well, the ridership model shows this," 15 without giving us any supporting evidence. 16 So we need to know what you are 17 inputting into the ridership model, and we need 18 to know the algorithm that is used in the 19 ridership model. If it's an Excel spreadsheet, 20 I can interpret it. However it exists, I think 21 it's very important that that be made public so 22 that it's not a secret black box. 23 Second of all, I think Barbara made 24 a good point. One thing that the MBTA has been MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 96 1 showing over the years is disrespect for this 2 community. Okay? You respect the communities 3 that have light rail, and you disrespect 4 communities that have buses. I think that's 5 very clear. 6 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Ms. Wepsic? 7 MS. WEPSIC: I don't know where this 8 fits in, but Ralph -- isn't it true that traffic 9 is projected to increase in Boston two percent a 10 year every year? Isn't that kind of a standard 11 model? 12 MR. RALPH DeNISCO: Ralph DeNisco 13 from the Boston Transportation Department. 14 Depending on projects that we review, we request 15 that the proponents use different measurements 16 of future growth depending on the neighborhood, 17 depending on other background factors, if there 18 were other things that are known to be happening 19 in that area, increased levels of development. 20 So those are some things that are taken into 21 account. 22 Typically a background number is 23 anywhere from one to two percent annually. 24 Unfortunately I don't have the numbers with me MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 97 1 or know them off the top of my head. But I know 2 that through the Access Boston study, one of the 3 things that was done was to look at the overall 4 level of traffic growth in the city in the last 5 few years. And it's been I think hitting the 6 one to two percent mark pretty consistently. 7 MS. WEPSIC: I would ask that you 8 get a better figure for the route from Mr. 9 DeNisco or use something between like one and 10 two percent for your model for running time, 11 because the running time will change year by 12 year and will get worse as traffic increases. 13 I also have another observation that 14 I would like put in there, and it's about the 15 bus stops past Brigham Circle. If the LRV is 16 restored, there will be no need for any bus 17 stops past Brigham Circle except where there are 18 other buses that run. There is no bus that runs 19 on Huntington after you pass Brigham Circle 20 except the 39, and the other routes, there are 21 no buses. These bus stops can be taken away and 22 that can be given over to parking. 23 In addition, there is a different 24 bus stop size for both the 40-foot and the 60- MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 98 1 foot bus that is dependent on the width of the 2 street. And I ask that you put that in the 3 model, especially past Brigham Circle and 4 intown. Where are the bus stops going to be 5 located? How long do they have to be? And from 6 a political point of view, will that be 7 tolerated in the Back Bay? 8 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Okay. Yes? 9 You haven't spoken. 10 MS. DIANE PIENTA: Diane Pienta, 37 11 Custer Street. 12 I just wanted to get a clarification 13 on what the time line was. What I had heard was 14 that there was a March 2nd deadline by which you 15 needed to respond to DEP in terms of 16 alternatives, so I'm wondering, are you going to 17 whip these studies up in the next 48 hours? 18 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: The March 2nd 19 deadline would be the completion of the public 20 process. The reports that will be generated 21 from the public process will be given to EOTC, 22 the Executive Office of Transportation and 23 Construction, before the May 2nd deadline, where 24 they have to make a determination to DEP. So I MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 99 1 would say the reports will be submitted to them 2 in an April time frame, and they will make their 3 report to DEP in May, May 2nd. 4 MS. PIENTA: So what follow-up will 5 the community have in terms of the opportunity 6 to review the results of the study, to become 7 involved at that point? 8 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: There will not 9 be another public meeting. You could certainly 10 view the report, though. 11 MS. WEPSIC: When? 12 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: When it's 13 done. 14 MS. DEIRDRE BUCKLEY: Deirdre 15 Buckley, from the Executive Office of 16 Environmental Affairs. 17 I just want you to know that any 18 studies that are given to the DEP will go 19 through a public process and will be discussed 20 with EOTC. There is a public review process. I 21 forget, but I think it's about two weeks. So 22 this isn't the final opportunity. 23 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Is there 24 anybody who hasn't spoken? MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 100 1 All right. Let's go around again. 2 MR. LARRY CRONIN: Larry Cronin. 3 I would like to echo the concerns 4 about the way the ridership is measured. And I 5 think that it's not a simple matter of the laws 6 of supply and demand. In health care if you put 7 a hospital or a doctor in an area, demand 8 increases. The same thing will hold true if you 9 restore LRV. Demand will increase. So you 10 simply can't take the current ridership on the 11 39 bus line and then apply headways and measure 12 it that way. 13 There's also the matter of people 14 that would come and use the service from other 15 areas that would need to use it going back. So, 16 you know, there's some things that you need to 17 look at to build into the model. 18 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Thank you. 19 Mr. Ferris? 20 MR. FERRIS: A couple of things. 21 One, as president of the Jamaica Plain Business 22 Association, I appreciate the comments referring 23 to maximizing ability of shoppers to come to the 24 business area, and I would echo that. And I'm MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 101 1 sorry I didn't say that myself earlier, shoppers 2 and employees working here as well. 3 Also, I think, echoing again what 4 Carolyn stated was impact on street wear and 5 tear, the buses and the tracks both have their 6 own significant wear on the street. 7 A further note on bicycles would be 8 something encouraging transit use and 9 multimodalism, the ability to carry bicycles 10 onto a transit vehicle, which, you are adding 11 bike racks to buses. But there's currently no 12 bike racks on any of the light rail service. 13 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: In the nonpeak 14 time there is, but not the Green Line. 15 MR. FERRIS: None of the Green line 16 service. 17 A question, actually, following from 18 Franklyn's comment. At this point we are not 19 looking toward any future fuel sources such as 20 low sulfur or diesel in terms of how this 21 comparison is being done? Is that correct? 22 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Not as part of 23 this study. But the T is always looking at 24 various opportunities. We are doing a couple of MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 102 1 demonstration programs, one on biodiesel 2 technology. We are also doing an induction 3 electric vehicle demonstration program. So yes, 4 we are looking at other alternatives. But as 5 part of this study, right now the CNG is the 6 alternative fuel that we have dedicated to go 7 forward for the time being, until, as Mr. 8 Salimbene correctly pointed out, until there's a 9 better technology that we could utilize. 10 MR. FERRIS: A couple more points, 11 and I'll move quickly here. 12 Public safety. Further in town, 13 once you get to South Huntington and Huntington, 14 there is certainly the public safety issue of 15 having to board and alight vehicles in the 16 middle of the street. And would that be 17 included somewhere on here, that public safety 18 issue? 19 MS. BARROW: The public safety 20 associated with the safety of a person on one 21 mode versus another mode? 22 MR. FERRIS: Well, yes, in that at 23 South Huntington Avenue when a bus would pull to 24 the curb, so you don't have a safety issue, MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 103 1 versus the rail vehicle in the middle of the 2 street, and you have to interact with traffic 3 potentially not always observing regulations 4 about not passing a transit vehicle. 5 MS. BARROW: We will look at that. 6 MR. FERRIS: It should be included 7 in the public safety material. 8 And another, well, question or 9 suggestion, is, is there some way to look at how 10 -- doing the models -- of how many vehicles can 11 run, how it interacts with the rest of the Green 12 Lines, specifically the B, C and D lines 13 downtown, and the feasibility of, if you wanted 14 to compare a more frequent service of the E 15 trolley, is that actually feasible in regards to 16 how it fits in with the other three Green Lines. 17 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: As I mentioned 18 before, one of the things that we thought SYSTRA 19 could bring to the process is that they did a 20 modeling of the Green Line. So that's a very 21 good issue, because, you know, you play with 22 something, you've got to see what the impact is 23 on the other lines. 24 So that's why, if you do six-minute MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 104 1 headways, it has an impact someplace. 2 Seven-minute headways have a different impact, 3 eight minutes. So we are going to try to play 4 with all those different headways and see what 5 impacts there are. So that will be part of the 6 analysis, those impacts. 7 MR. FERRIS: Just one more comment. 8 You certainly have a challenge, in looking at 9 the streets, and some of these areas may require 10 sort of more of a matrix of comparison, in that, 11 as I see it, you are really designing four very 12 different transit criteria. You've got the 13 narrow streets of JP out here, you've got the 14 wide streets of Huntington, South Huntington, 15 you've got the separate reservation further at 16 Huntington, and then you have the underground 17 service, each of which have very, very different 18 design criteria, and it's certainly a challenge 19 on your end. Many of these things will need to 20 be looked at on four completely different areas, 21 to really compare what they do. 22 Thank you. 23 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes, sir? 24 MR. CHILD: Earlier, about the MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 105 1 60-foot CNG buses, you mentioned the difficulty 2 in production of the 60-foot. I remember 3 hearing you say that, and I have heard that from 4 other sources as well. What are the 5 difficulties of producing a 60-foot CNG bus? 6 MS. BARROW: I'm not an expert on 7 bus manufacturing, but it has to do with the 8 tradeoffs between length and weight. That's all 9 I can say. Because the bus is getting longer to 10 be 60-foot, and it's got CNG, and that's what 11 it's about. 12 MR. CHILD: Because my understanding 13 of the difficulty was, and I don't know if maybe 14 you don't know or maybe you can clarify it, but 15 it's that on a compressed natural gas bus and 16 all articulated buses, the engine is in the 17 front half of the bus but the fuel is in the 18 rear half of the bus, and the difficulty is the 19 connection of the flexibility of compressed 20 natural gas lines from the back to the front. 21 MS. BARROW: I can't say if that's 22 right. 23 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes, sir? 24 MR. DEMOS: Kosta Demos, 60 Yale MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 106 1 Terrace. 2 I'd like to take advantage of a 3 chance to agree with Jeff in public. 4 (Laughter) 5 I would like to echo what he said 6 about multimodal design, and taking seriously 7 the concerns of people who use bikes in the 8 city. Jeff and I disagree about the impact of 9 the tracks on safety, but I know that there are 10 examples in other cities and other parts of the 11 world of providing racks, both interior and 12 exterior, on light rail vehicles and on buses. 13 And I think the T has been really contaminated 14 by example in terms of its treatment of bike 15 riders, and more effort needs to be put into 16 that. 17 Also, responding to the design 18 criteria, that really, that that's not going to 19 be an issue in terms of final design. It's 20 taking different situations and accommodating 21 them to a single vehicle. So no matter what is 22 done, it's always going to be a problem. I'll 23 leave it at that. 24 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Anyone who MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 107 1 hasn't spoken? Yes? 2 MR. SMITH: For the benefit of the 3 new consultants who may not have the time to 4 pore through a hundred twenty pages of the 5 transcript of the last meeting, and for those 6 who came here -- 7 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: They already 8 have. 9 MR. SMITH: Have you? And for those 10 of you who are here for the first time, I want 11 to read some very brief statements, one by 12 Joseph Beegan, quote, "Our general conclusion 13 was that the introduction of the service should 14 not have a negative impact on congestion on the 15 corridor." That's the whole corridor. 16 MR. KURLAND: You are talking about 17 light rail, right? 18 MR. SMITH: Light rail. 19 Two, William Gallagher, quote, "So 20 basically this is how we see it could be 21 restored. It's possible." 22 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes, sir? 23 MR. STONE: Let me just raise an 24 issue of safety. He said that the bus has the MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 108 1 capacity to pull over to the curb. Now, I want 2 to just give you some information. It's based 3 on going to the Blessed Sacrament parish for 4 some 20-odd years. There is a parishioner there 5 by the name of Eddy Dolan. 6 Eddy Dolan is considered to be the 7 mayor of Hyde Square. He's almost 80 years 8 old. And every time we talk to Eddy after Mass, 9 Eddy tells us he spent his entire week yelling 10 at the bus drivers to bring the bus over to the 11 curb to let the elderly people get on the bus. 12 The bus drivers don't use the 13 capability of the bus to ensure safety. They 14 ignore it, except when Eddy is there yelling at 15 them. And the man is 80 years old and probably 16 not going to be in our community much longer. 17 So that safety feature of a bus is simply not 18 used. 19 So when you consider safety, you 20 should consider the fact that the light rail 21 vehicle, in its use, will be probably equal to 22 the use of a bus. Thank you. 23 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes? 24 MS. PIENTA: Responding to something MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 109 1 that Jeff mentioned, too, that I wanted to be 2 clear that I understand, that part of the study 3 will also consider the impact of the E line LRV 4 on the other Green Lines? Is that right? And 5 how that will impact that? 6 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: It will be a 7 consideration. 8 MS. PIENTA: I just wanted to 9 emphasize that certainly LRV restoration should 10 not be considered infeasible because of impacts 11 that it might have on other Green Lines. And 12 certainly I think if those communities -- it's 13 important to be considered, but I think, and I 14 don't have the figures offhand, but I think that 15 you will find that ridership on the E line would 16 be one of the highest ridership numbers of all 17 the Green Lines, and that should be taken into 18 consideration in terms of its impact. 19 So I would really be extremely 20 disappointed to see that we couldn't restore E 21 line service because of negative impact that it 22 might have on other Green Lines. You all are 23 the experts in public transportation. There 24 should be a way to make it all work, providing MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 110 1 all communities. 2 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes, sir? 3 MR. PETER NERSESIAN: Peter 4 Nersesian. I live in Allston. 5 And just picking up off of that 6 comment, I want to add that you will get 7 increased ridership benefits on those other 8 lines. Like I said, I live in Allston, and I 9 know that there's a lot of great things that 10 draw people to Jamaica Plain. And I also know 11 that a lot of people don't come to those things 12 because, even if you are driving, Jamaica Plain 13 is difficult to get to. There's not a good 14 way. It's confusing, you know, like the rest of 15 the city. It's confusing to figure out how to 16 get from point A to B without knowing your way 17 already. 18 You look at a Green Line map, you 19 know you get on the T, you go to Copley, you 20 turn around, you come back out the Green Line 21 down here. And if I had a dime for every time I 22 have heard someone say, "Yeah, but that's way 23 down in JP. Yeah, but that's, you know, I know 24 that it's there, but you know, it's just not on MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 111 1 my way anywhere." 2 It's just -- I always lament the 3 fact that the businesses and that the 4 attractions down here don't get the exposure, 5 they don't get appreciated by people from other 6 parts of the city because it's thought of as 7 remote. 8 And just another unrelated comment, 9 I just wanted to mention that I have compiled 10 just a number of items of interest related just 11 to links and things on the Internet at WWW dot 12 geocities dot com slash Arborway 2001. And Joe 13 Cosgrove has been very kind in e-mailing me the 14 minutes from these meetings, and those and some 15 other information, some discussion groups, are 16 on the Internet. 17 MR. DEACON: I just wanted -- a 18 couple of things. When the Arborway last ran in 19 '85, it was indeed one of the highest Green 20 Line branches in terms of ridership. 21 Traditionally the Arborway and Boston College 22 used to vie in terms of which was the heaviest 23 line of all of the city of Boston lines. But 24 both needed to be run more effectively. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 112 1 Riverside then came after, and Cleveland 2 Circle. 3 I just want to, back about ten years 4 ago, more or less -- and I want to talk about 5 assumptions and field models. There was a 6 program for mass transportation, and it was part 7 of a process to elicit comments from the public 8 and also comments from various agencies on what 9 transportation plans should be done in the 10 future. 11 And there was a whole bunch of 12 stuff. And one of the things, when we were 13 talking about the Arborway corridor, there came 14 a suggestion in the PMT to run the Arborway line 15 as a bus line, and instead of going down to 16 Copley, if you wanted to reach Ruggles, at 17 Ruggles Street, you could take a right on 18 Ruggles Street and go over to Ruggles Street 19 station, to be combined with another bus line, 20 the 43, which actually does go down Tremont 21 Street and around the Common. 22 Now, the 43 doesn't run anywhere 23 near as often as the Arborway, and the journey 24 down Tremont Street, especially during rush MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 113 1 hour, is a very, very tedious journey, every bit 2 if not worse than any other journey, even though 3 it's a bus, on a congested street in Boston. 4 But if you do computer modeling and 5 assumptions, one of the things you come across 6 is that there's a penalty, a so-called transfer 7 penalty. If you have a one-seat, one-ride, you 8 get on and go to your destination, even though 9 it may take a little longer. In some cases the 10 ridership reflects that, because you are going 11 to have to make a change, and there is a 12 transfer penalty. But by combining 43 and 39, 13 it appears on paper to be a one-route, one-seat 14 ride downtown and around the Common. 15 The fact that it would take eons to 16 do such a trip, and trip time alone would have a 17 severe negative impact, is something that might 18 not be captured in the model unless the 19 assumption was very clearly written. 20 So in the discussions, this sort of 21 -- we don't really have a route yet. Or 22 talking about routes, I just wanted to remind 23 people that you may end up with not only no 24 light rail service, but you might end up with MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 114 1 functionally being forced to transfer at 2 Ruggles. And the 39 bus might actually be cut 3 back. And that would significantly save a lot 4 of money for the MBTA. So in terms of different 5 routings, I would mention that as something to 6 be very, very careful about. 7 The second thing of all, in terms of 8 compressed natural gas 60-foot buses, the real 9 problem is with the low floor of a 60-foot 10 articulated compressed natural gas bus. You 11 can't put the engine underneath the front of the 12 bus, it's got to be on the rear. And there's 13 not enough room to put all the gas on the rear 14 trailer section. So you have to put some of the 15 gas bottles on the front section. And that 16 brings up the issue of flexible coupling. 17 From what little I know about CNG, 18 you are really not supposed to have flexible 19 couplings, because obviously if they flex too 20 much and you get a leak, you might run into a 21 significant problem. So I'm not even too sure 22 if these buses are technologically feasible. It 23 depends on the placement of the engine. 24 One thing, final thing. This whole MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 115 1 process was supposed to look at the feasibility 2 of restoring Green Line service. There is 3 nothing here that says you can't restore Green 4 Line service. So there's a real issue here, you 5 know. How far do we want to go on to another 6 study and a whole bunch of review? 7 It would seem the best alternative 8 would be to direct the MBTA and the EOTC to 9 begin the process of actually restoring Green 10 Line service and commencing the work necessary 11 to do so, including the upgrading of power, 12 cables, and new catenary, the construction of a 13 small car barn at Forest Hills to be able to do 14 running maintenance just for the Arborway cars, 15 and the whole range of things that needs to be 16 done. 17 It's one thing to say it's feasible, 18 but we really do need a timetable to implement 19 the service as soon as possible, because it's 20 been too long and there should be no more delay. 21 (Applause) 22 So that's the issue. 23 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Okay. Thank 24 you very much. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 116 1 And thank you very much for sharing 2 your thoughts with us. Good night. 3 4 (Whereupon the hearing ended at 8:20 5 p.m.) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 117 1 CERTIFICATE 2 3 4 Commonwealth of Massachusetts 5 Suffolk, ss. 6 7 8 I, Kathleen L. McCarthy, Registered 9 Professional Reporter and Notary Public, do 10 hereby certify that the foregoing record, pages 11 1 through 116, inclusive, is a complete accurate 12 and true transcription of my stenographic notes 13 taken in the aforementioned matter to the best 14 of my skills and ability. 15 _____________________ 16 Kathleen L. McCarthy 17 RPR 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207