1 1 VOL. I 2 PAGES 1-133 3 4 5 6 COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS 7 8 9 ARBORWAY 10 LIGHT RAIL RESTORATION 11 PUBLIC MEETING 12 13 14 15 MODERATOR: Dennis A. DiZoglio 16 17 18 19 20 21 Agassiz Community Center 22 Auditorium, First Floor Jamaica Plain, Massachusetts 23 Wednesday, May 30, 2001 Commencing at 6:10 p.m. 24 MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 2 1 Representing 2 MASSACHUSETTS BAY TRANSPORTATION AUTHORITY 3 Transportation Building Ten Park Plaza, Room 5750 4 Boston, Massachusetts 02116 5 DENNIS A. DiZOGLIO, Director of Planning 6 JOSEPH M. COSGROVE, Deputy Director of 7 Planning 8 CONRAD MISEK, Service Planning 9 10 Representing 11 SYSTRA CONSULTING, INC. 38 Chauncy Street, Suite 805 12 Boston, Massachusetts 02111 13 ERIK SCHEIER, P.E., Project Manager 14 MONICA BARROW, Project Manager 15 16 Representing 17 CENTRAL TRANSPORTATION PLANNING STAFF 18 VIJAY MAHAL 19 20 21 22 23 24 MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 3 1 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Good evening. 2 Thanks for coming to the fourth in a series of 3 public meetings that we have been having on the 4 topic of restoring light rail to the Arborway 5 corridor. 6 If I could, we will go through the 7 agenda just briefly. The introduction -- which 8 I'm going to take care of right now. My name is 9 Dennis DiZoglio, for those of you who have not 10 been here before. I'm the director of planning 11 for the MBTA. 12 And I have brought with me tonight 13 a series of people who have worked on elements 14 of this study. We have the consultant team of 15 SYSTRA, and we have Monica Barrow and Eric 16 Scheier who are here to talk about their 17 findings in the study. 18 We have also asked Vijay Mahal from 19 the CTPS, the Central Transportation Planning 20 Staff, to come down -- and he's the one who did 21 the modeling -- for issues, to answer any 22 questions you may have on the modeling. 23 Joe Cosgrove, who is with the 24 planning department, is here as well. And MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 4 1 Conrad Misek, who is with service planning, and 2 who designed the service plan for the bus 3 alternative that was considered. 4 So we have tried to bring some 5 people to address any questions or comments that 6 people have as we go through the study. 7 I guess we should tell you also, I 8 will remind you -- I probably have to remind 9 you -- we have a stenographer this evening, as 10 we had the first three meetings. And so that 11 she can keep an accurate record of comments, I 12 would ask when we get to the question and answer 13 period that you state your name and address so 14 she can record it. She has been very accurate, 15 and I commend her work. She has done an 16 outstanding job. But if you could remember to 17 do that, I'd appreciate that. 18 And maybe we can move on to the 19 next -- just to kind of bring us up to speed, 20 where we are at, as many of you know, when the 21 Central Artery was being constructed or proposed 22 to be constructed, there was a suggestion that 23 they mitigate the Central Artery construction to 24 ensure that there were sufficient public transit MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 5 1 improvements to the area. And as part of it, 2 there was a discussion that the Arborway 3 service, which was discontinued in 1985, be 4 restored, and so there was that requirement 5 under the Central Artery mitigation project. 6 Along comes 1999, and the MBTA 7 conducted a study analyzing light rail and other 8 alternatives for the corridor, with the 9 suggestion or the desire to consider a 10 substitution for the service that was required 11 under the Central Artery. During that 12 substitution, DEP reacted to the substitution 13 application and said that they felt it was not 14 sufficient in meeting some of the questions and 15 some of the concerns that people had about 16 restoring light rail to the Arborway. 17 Specifically, there were four areas 18 that they wanted us to concentrate on. One was 19 to ensure that the light rail was the base case 20 scenario, that any alternative would be compared 21 to the light rail restoration. Two was that the 22 light rail have a six-minute headway for 23 service. Three was that there would be a 24 one-seat ride from Forest Hills down to Park MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 6 1 Street. And four, they wanted us to clarify 2 some of the ridership numbers from previous 3 studies, particularly a 1988 study that was done 4 that had a different ridership than what was 5 projected in our 1999 study. 6 So they asked us to look at those 7 areas and specifics, and they gave us a time 8 line for us to do so. And the public meeting 9 was something that we have been using to 10 accomplish the time line that was spelled out by 11 DEP. 12 And they asked us to do the 13 following. They asked us to look at the 14 feasibility of restoring light rail from an 15 engineering perspective, and also to look at it 16 being a comparison between what we were talking 17 about as far as a substitution and the light 18 rail itself. So I believe it was in December I 19 think we may have had our first public meeting, 20 where we had someone come in and try to get a 21 handle on the kinds of light rail service people 22 were expecting to be restored. 23 And we came back, I believe it was 24 in a January time frame, with a report to show MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 7 1 how that light rail could be restored. And we 2 are going to go through some of the ideas as the 3 base case in a few minutes. 4 Then in February we had another 5 meeting where we brought in SYSTRA, who was 6 going to do the comparison analysis, to talk 7 about the kinds of things that we should 8 consider in evaluating the substitution CNG bus 9 alternative with the light rail. 10 So that brings us to tonight, 11 where -- as you may recall, there was a time 12 frame of us to be completed by May 2. But DEP 13 has received some comments about, "Gee, we 14 haven't really had an opportunity to hear the 15 comparison analysis study, or presentation," and 16 that "perhaps we should have that." And I know 17 that that was referenced by some people at the 18 last meeting as to, "Gee, it would be nice to be 19 able to see it," so that you could make 20 comments on it in the future. So this meeting 21 was an add-on by DEP to kind of go over the 22 comparison analysis so that you would have a 23 better idea of the comparison from our 24 perspective between the CNG and the light rail. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 8 1 And where we are going to go from 2 here is that after tonight's meeting, we will be 3 making our recommendations to the EOTC. And 4 then on June 15, EOTC will be making their 5 recommendations to DEP for them to consider and 6 to make a decision as to what we are going to be 7 required to do under the original Central Artery 8 mitigation requirements. 9 So I hope that, in a thumbnail 10 sketch, gives you an idea of where we have been 11 and where we are going, and where we are at 12 tonight. And so I think the best thing to do is 13 go to the next slide, just to set the groundwork 14 for Monica to come up and go through this all. 15 But the study, the purpose of the study, was to 16 compare light rail service from Forest Hills to 17 Park Street, and an alternative would be a 18 compressed natural gas bus, a 60-footer, from 19 Forest Hills to Park Street as well. 20 So what I would like to do is allow 21 Monica to go through the presentation, and then 22 at the end of the presentation, we can open it 23 up to questions and answers at that time. Okay? 24 With that, Monica, if you would MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 9 1 like to go through the rest of the slides. 2 MS. BARROW: All right. The agenda 3 for me is to talk about the corridor -- 4 FROM THE AUDIENCE: We can't hear 5 you. 6 MS. BARROW: The agenda behind me 7 is to describe what I'm going to talk about in 8 this part of the presentation for the Arborway 9 alternative. I'm going to talk about the 10 project goals, the alternatives considered, do 11 an overview of light rail service and 12 implementation, CNG bus service and 13 implementation, and then talk about the 14 evaluation. 15 Six goals were established to guide 16 the evaluation of alternatives for the Arborway. 17 They are listed here: achieve regional air 18 quality standards, maintain public safety, 19 increase transit usage, preserve local business, 20 develop an operationally effective solution, and 21 comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act. 22 Each goal is associated with 23 objectives and criteria that further structure 24 the evaluation. I'm going to cover those later. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 10 1 As Dennis said, two alternatives 2 were considered, light rail service from Forest 3 Hills to Park Street, and CNG bus service from 4 Forest Hills to Park Street. Both alternatives 5 represent a one-seat ride from Park Street. 6 The light rail alternative, as I 7 think you well know, would extend E Line service 8 to Forest Hills. This is a picture of the light 9 rail vehicle behind me here. 10 There would be 11 stations after 11 Heath Street, including Forest Hills. These 12 vehicles would operate two-car trains in mixed 13 traffic. It would be about a 35-minute trip 14 from Park Street to Forest Hills. Peak headways 15 would be six minutes. This service would 16 replace the Route 39 bus. 17 For implementation, sixteen new 18 light rail vehicles would need to be purchased. 19 A new storage and maintenance facility would be 20 constructed at the Arborway Yard. New track and 21 new signal and power systems would need to be 22 constructed, and a roadway would be constructed 23 in conjunction with the City of Boston. 24 This sketch shows the approximate MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 11 1 location of the stations between Heath Street 2 and Forest Hills. Each station stop would have 3 an inbound and outbound platform a hundred fifty 4 feet long. As I said before, there are 11 5 stations after Heath. 6 For the bus service, as I said, it 7 would be Forest Hills to Park Street via Copley. 8 I will show you a map in a second. It would be 9 36 stops between Forest Hills and Park, about a 10 41-minute trip. The vehicles would be 11 articulated, low-floor CNG buses. And the bus 12 stops would be lengthened, and they would be 13 enhanced with things like better signage 14 information. 15 I should note that for purposes of 16 this study, we assumed the maximum number of 17 stops. It's likely that when our service 18 planning is done, that the stops would be 19 reduced. 20 This graphic shows the route that 21 the CNG bus alternative would follow. It starts 22 at Forest Hills like the Route 39. It follows 23 the Route 39 to Copley, where it picks up what 24 is today the Route 55 service. Then it goes to MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 12 1 Park Street. This diagram shows that. 2 As far as like the route -- 3 FROM THE AUDIENCE: Could you just 4 go back one? 5 MS. BARROW: Well, we're not going 6 to handle questions now. 7 FROM THE AUDIENCE: Oh, you're not? 8 MS. BARROW: Well, it would be 9 better if you held it to the end. But if you 10 didn't hear me, that's okay. 11 FROM THE AUDIENCE: Just, what's 12 the street going up between Saint James and 13 Boylston? 14 MR. SCHEIER: That's Belvidere. 15 MS. BARROW: Belvidere. 16 For implementation, the CNG bus 17 alternative would require 26 buses, the 18 lengthening and enhancements of bus stops, and 19 storage would take place at Southampton. 20 For the evaluation of alternatives, 21 I have abbreviated what I showed last time for 22 both to make it a little more visible. Each 23 goal is associated with objectives and criteria; 24 that's structure and evaluation. What is listed MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 13 1 here is the primary objective or criteria that's 2 used. These were presented at a public meeting 3 in February, as Dennis said, and they were 4 revised because of the comments that we heard. 5 So the key measures associated with 6 each goal are -- for air quality it's emissions, 7 and specific pollutants will be identified. For 8 public safety it's the free passage of emergency 9 vehicles. For transit usage it's ridership, 10 reliability, trip time and directness. 11 For preserving local business it's 12 access by auto, truck, pedestrians and bicycles. 13 For operational effectiveness, it's system 14 performance, capacity and cost. And for ADA, 15 it's whether the vehicle is compliant with ADA. 16 So for the first goal, achieve 17 regional air quality standards, emissions 18 forecasts were derived by the Central 19 Transportation Planning Staff, or CTPS, using a 20 regional model, the same model that they use for 21 a wide variety of applications, the impact of a 22 highway extension, for example. 23 What you see is that emissions 24 results are very similar for the three key MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 14 1 pollutants, non-methane hydrocarbon, carbon 2 monoxide, and nitrogen oxides, at both the 3 corridor level and the regional level. Both 4 alternatives achieve targeted levels. 5 For the next goal, maintaining 6 safety, as I said earlier, the key criterion is 7 the free passage of emergency vehicles. Light 8 rail vehicles will not be able to pull over to 9 allow vehicles to pass because they operate on a 10 fixed guideway. In narrow streets an emergency 11 vehicle could be blocked by the light rail 12 vehicle. 13 CNG buses are affected by traffic 14 but they are not on a fixed guideway, so the 15 driver would be able to move over to let a 16 vehicle pass. 17 The next goal is to increase the -- 18 MR. MOLONEY: Could I have a 19 question on that, please? 20 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Would you wait 21 until the end, please? 22 MR. MOLONEY: You will take all the 23 questions at the end? 24 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: At the end I MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 15 1 will recognize you first. 2 MS. BARROW: For increased transit 3 usage, the key criterion is ridership. The 4 ridership model, as I said earlier, is the CTPS 5 model, which is used for a variety of 6 applications. What you see is that the 7 alternatives are roughly equal in ridership, 8 both on a systemwide basis and in the Park 9 Street to Forest Hills corridor. The difference 10 between the two alternatives' numbers are 11 basically within the error value of the model. 12 I just want to highlight that in 13 the CNG bus alternative, you actually have two 14 modes, because you have the bus from Forest 15 Hills to Park Street and you have the light rail 16 from Heath Street to Park and beyond. Both of 17 the -- all of these numbers are just a little 18 higher than today. Actually the light rail 19 numbers are a little less than today, but for 20 the most part they are the same numbers. 21 For the goal of preserving local 22 business, we looked at access, and light rail 23 does offer a connection to the rest of the rail 24 system. Light rail would periodically worsen MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 16 1 traffic. CNG bus service will generally 2 maintain today's traffic and access to 3 businesses. 4 Both alternatives would require 5 parking space reductions. In the case of the 6 light rail it is because of the construction of 7 platforms; in the case of the CNG bus, 8 lengthening the bus stop. Light rail would 9 require a hundred twenty spaces to be lost. The 10 CNG bus alternative would require about 38 11 spaces to be lost. 12 For the goal of developing an 13 operationally effective solution, we looked at 14 the effects on system capacity, the effects on 15 cost, the overall compatibility with the system. 16 Because Copley Junction is at capacity, 17 additional service on the E Line branch requires 18 a reduction, one-for-one reduction, on other 19 branches. 20 You have to remember that the 21 E Line service -- the restoration is an 22 increase, six-minute headways would represent a 23 significant increase over E Line service today. 24 Bus offers more flexibility than light rail in MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 17 1 mixed traffic. 2 The capital costs of the 3 alternatives are about 77 million for light rail 4 and 25 million for bus service, which gives you 5 a cost per transit rider of 22 hundred dollars 6 for light rail, 683 for bus. Both alternatives 7 would increase operating costs for the T, light 8 rail by seven million, CNG bus by about four. 9 In terms of complying with the ADA, 10 both alternatives would be compliant, would be 11 compliant vehicles, and station stops would be 12 compliant, so they are equal in that sense. 13 In summary, the alternatives are 14 about the same in air quality and ridership. 15 They are different on the other -- where the 16 other goals are concerned. CNG is preferred in 17 terms of access to businesses, public safety and 18 operational effectiveness. 19 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Just to add to 20 this, from the T's perspective, again, the 21 second bullet, the major issues for us are the 22 narrow elements of South and Centre Street. 23 That causes a lot of the problems that we have 24 talked about. That is a concern for us. And MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 18 1 the second issue is, the capacity of the Green 2 Line is the other issue. And those are the two 3 main issues that led to those -- that last 4 bullet, from the T's perspective. 5 But as I promised we would stop at 6 this point and open it up to questions, and I 7 know Mr. Ferris -- or Mr. Moloney had some 8 questions. 9 MR. MOLONEY: I am asking for 10 clarification on four points. 11 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes. 12 MR. MOLONEY: There's a statement 13 there that the light rail would periodically 14 worsen traffic. Can you tell me the factual 15 basis for that conclusion? That's number one. 16 Number two, you said something 17 about LRV's in quote narrow quote streets. You 18 make no reference to buses in quote narrow quote 19 streets. And I would like to know the factual 20 basis of your conclusion that there would be a 21 deleterious effect of narrow streets with light 22 rail, and why you did not analyze buses, 60-foot 23 CNG buses, in terms of whatever quote narrow 24 quote streets are. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 19 1 Thirdly, you talked about the loss 2 of parking spaces. What is the factual basis 3 for your conclusion on the loss of parking 4 spaces? And a related part of that, is that 5 based upon a hundred fifty-foot what you 6 referred to now not as stops but as stations? 7 And in your plan, are they directly across from 8 one another as opposed to being staggered? And 9 doesn't a hundred fifty feet allow for a loading 10 of two cars on the platform? And why do you 11 call them stations? I don't think you're 12 proposing building any stations. You are 13 talking about stops. 14 And then on the cost aspect, on 15 what do you base the operating cost analysis, 16 and on what do you base the capital cost 17 analysis? 18 And when you talk about a storage 19 and maintenance facility at Forest Hills, the T 20 last week agreed to eight-tenths of an acre at 21 the new Arborway Yard only for the provision of 22 track. There is an absence of any plan on the 23 drawings that have been proposed or in the 24 agreement entered into by the community and the MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 20 1 city and the T for any kind of maintenance 2 facility or garage. It's essentially track. 3 But I would like to know the 4 factual basis of your analysis for the numbers 5 on the operating costs and on the capital costs. 6 And include, if you would, whether or not you 7 propose to replace the bus fleet in 22 to 25 8 years or in 11 to 12 years. Because that's not 9 the only part of the analysis. 10 And I think we are entitled to know 11 all of the subsidiary economic and other factual 12 numbers that go into every single one of these 13 issues. 14 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Monica, do you 15 want to take that? 16 MS. BARROW: Okay. I just, I was 17 writing them down as you were talking. The 18 first thing that you asked was the basis for the 19 statement that light rail -- 20 FROM THE AUDIENCE: Louder. 21 MS. BARROW: The first point he 22 asked was the basis for the statement that light 23 rail would periodically worsen traffic. That is 24 based on the URS report. That is based on the MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 21 1 findings of the light rail study that was done 2 and I believe presented in January, which talked 3 about the conditions under which light rail 4 service in mixed traffic would result in 5 problems on certain streets, particularly the 6 narrower streets. So that is the basis for 7 that. 8 As far as, why didn't we look at 9 buses and narrow streets, well, we did look at 10 buses and narrow streets, because we are talking 11 about a bus on the streets that they operate 12 now, so there's no -- the 60-foot buses aren't 13 wider, and they are not -- there's no reason to 14 believe that the 60-foot buses would worsen 15 traffic. 16 MR. MOLONEY: Could I just ask a 17 clarifying point on that? If you have traffic 18 that -- if you have cars that are parked at the 19 sidewalk, and then you have a 60-foot CNG, which 20 is a large vehicle, I think you would agree with 21 me that it is, occupying the distance between 22 the center of the street and the sidewalk, where 23 is the bus to go? Cross into the other lane of 24 the opposing traffic, or to push the cars out of MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 22 1 the way and get close to the sidewalk? Would 2 that not have an effect? 3 MS. BARROW: It wouldn't have any 4 more of an effect than what happens with a bus 5 today. 6 MR. MOLONEY: But your argument is 7 that the light rail would worsen traffic, buses 8 preserve it as it is. I would like to know the 9 basis for your conclusion that on narrow 10 streets, buses also would not in your opinion 11 worsen traffic. 12 MS. BARROW: I don't think I can 13 say it in any different way. 14 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Okay. Why 15 don't you go to the next question. 16 MS. BARROW: Okay. The factual 17 basis for the loss of parking spaces. In the 18 light rail alternative, the loss of park spaces 19 is based on the construction of platforms. The 20 platforms require space; that space translates 21 to parking spaces. And that again is part of 22 the detailed look at light rail that was done in 23 the earlier part of this year. 24 For the buses, it's based on every MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 23 1 existing bus stop being long enough to 2 accommodate a 60-foot bus. So each bus gets 3 longer -- each bus stop gets longer, and that 4 results in a loss of spaces. 5 Let me run through his six before 6 we take someone else. Okay? 7 The next thing I wrote down was, 8 are the a hundred fifty-foot stops opposite one 9 another? I don't understand what that means. 10 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I think I can 11 clear that up. 12 MS. BARROW: I mean I think some 13 would be, some wouldn't be. 14 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: They are not 15 going to be opposite each other. URS had them 16 staggered. 17 MS. BARROW: The next thing I wrote 18 down was the basis of the costs, capital and 19 operating. The capital costs, the capital costs 20 have several components. The vehicle component 21 of capital costs is based on the current amount 22 that the T is paying for either light rail 23 vehicles or 60-foot CNG buses. 24 The infrastructure costs associated MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 24 1 with each alternative are based on construction 2 cost estimates, you know, either materials costs 3 or the -- it depends what it is. For track it's 4 based on an estimate of the track to be replaced 5 and the cost of the track, the signals, and how 6 it is per station is based on the unit cost of 7 the station. Similarly for bus capital. 8 For operating costs, in each 9 alternative -- each alternative starts with the 10 increase in service that each alternative 11 represents. The light rail alternative would 12 eliminate the existing bus, so there's a savings 13 to the T of the costs associated with today's 14 Route 39, and for CNG buses with an incremental 15 cost. So that's why they both have increases in 16 operating costs. 17 The next thing I wrote down was 18 what about -- I wrote, what about storage? I 19 think you may have thought I said that the CNG 20 buses would be stored at Arborway. I did not. 21 I said the light rail would be stored at 22 Arborway. 23 MR. MOLONEY: I'm talking about 24 light rail. You talked on the show-and-tell MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 25 1 about a maintenance and storage facility at 2 Forest Hills. There isn't -- 3 MS. BARROW: I said Arborway. 4 MR. MOLONEY: There isn't one 5 planned for there. It's just a track. An 6 eight-tenths of an acre track. 7 MS. BARROW: In order for the cars 8 to start out of Forest Hills in the morning, 9 they would have to be sitting there. 10 MR. MOLONEY: Right. It's a track. 11 If you look at the -- 12 MS. BARROW: Well, that's storage, 13 when you park a train. 14 MR. MOLONEY: Would you make 15 available in written form all of the information 16 that you used on the cost analysis for both 17 light rail and the alternative? 18 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: It will be in 19 the study. You will get a copy of the study and 20 it will have that. 21 MR. MOLONEY: All of the underlying 22 data will be there? 23 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes. 24 MR. MOLONEY: So we will know whose MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 26 1 estimates they are and what they are based on? 2 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes. 3 MR. MOLONEY: Complete information? 4 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes. 5 MR. MOLONEY: With full disclosure? 6 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes. 7 Your name and address, please, for 8 the record. 9 MR. BLACK: My name is Robert 10 Black, 22 Asticou Road, Jamaica Plain. 11 Could you explain how you came to 12 the emissions conclusions? What did you use for 13 the light rail analysis? 14 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I'm going to 15 ask Vijay Mahal, who did the modeling, to give 16 you an answer to that. 17 MR. MAHAL: First of all, all the 18 emissions were calculated within the travel 19 model that we use. What the model does is put 20 all the highway links we have, what our 21 simulated traffic volumes are, and the condition 22 of speed. And we go to a table called 23 multiplied H table, which basically tells you 24 what the pollution would be, depending on the MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 27 1 average condition of speed. That's how we 2 estimated the pollution on all the highway 3 links. 4 Now, in the case of LRT, we know 5 that Route 39 disappears. Therefore the 6 pollution generated by a Route 39 diesel bus is 7 not there anymore. The way we calculated that 8 was, we know, based on the frequency, how many 9 trips are made on a daily basis by Route 39, and 10 we also have some factors as to what type of 11 pollution these diesel engines emit for every 12 vehicle mile that's traveled. So based on that 13 calculation, we are able to estimate the total 14 amount of pollution reduced as a result of 15 eliminating Route 39. 16 At the same time, the light rail 17 transit does use up some electricity, and this 18 electricity is produced somewhere, which again 19 causes power source pollution. Unfortunately we 20 did not take that into account because it's very 21 difficult to determine how much pollution is 22 attributable to the power that is consumed by 23 the light rail transit. So that part we did not 24 include. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 28 1 MR. BLACK: Well, then how can 2 you -- there's no analysis, then, no comparison. 3 MR. MAHAL: No, there is, because, 4 as I say, it's included -- 5 MR. BLACK: Light rail has to be, 6 physically speaking, has to be less than CNG. 7 Thirty little engines running up and down Centre 8 Street is going to produce a lot more pollution 9 than one engine in any location -- 10 MR. MAHAL: Remember, one more 11 thing here is that -- 12 MR. BLACK: -- that ends up being 13 generated. 14 MR. MAHAL: Okay. One more thing 15 here is, the light rail transit alternative 16 would also lead to some systemwide transit trips 17 to be lost, because Route 39 disappears, and we 18 are estimating approximately five hundred trips 19 would go back to the auto mode because Route 39 20 is not there. 21 MR. KURLAND: That's what we want 22 to talk about. 23 MR. BLACK: So you're not showing 24 us light rail. You're showing us cars. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 29 1 MR. MAHAL: I think there is some 2 confusion here. The emissions numbers that you 3 are seeing there, this is for the total 4 emissions produced by all automobile traffic in 5 the whole region. It's not just the buses or 6 just LRT; it is all automobiles, every single 7 automobile, on the region's highway network. 8 MR. BLACK: Is that what the DEP is 9 asking for? 10 MS. BARROW: Yes. 11 MR. MAHAL: Yes. When they say the 12 region's air quality, they mean, truly mean, the 13 whole region. 14 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Ms. Wepsic? 15 MS. WEPSIC: Karen Wepsic, Prince 16 Street, Jamaica Plain. 17 I would like to ask, what is the 18 length of the bus stop proposed for the 60-foot 19 articulated on South Street? I understand in a 20 narrow street that the stop has to be very long 21 because the bus has to go in and go out. So can 22 you give me a number for the length of the bus 23 stop on South Street? 24 MS. BARROW: I'm not sure on that. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 30 1 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Twenty feet 2 longer than it is now, according to Eric. 3 MS. WEPSIC: Isn't it a function of 4 the width of the street, so that it's not -- a 5 wider street would require a much smaller bus 6 stop because the articulated vehicle would have 7 a longer way to get in and get out? A smaller 8 street, in other words, if it's very, very 9 narrow, you are going to have a huge bus stop 10 because you are not going to be able to pull the 11 bus in. 12 So I believe there are figures on 13 that, and you should have the answer to that. 14 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I think -- 15 well, I'm trying to answer. It's -- 16 MS. WEPSIC: It's not a parallel. 17 MR. SCHEIER: Well, it's not so 18 much a function of the width of the street. 19 It's really more of a function -- the bus stops 20 vary in overall length depending on other 21 circumstances. 22 MR. MOLONEY: Could we have your 23 name? 24 MR. SCHEIER: I'm sorry. Eric MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 31 1 Scheier. 2 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: We introduced 3 him. 4 MR. SCHEIER: It's really more of a 5 function of what other things you have along the 6 street. If a driveway is there, you don't want 7 to block a driveway. So you ideally want a bus 8 stop length of approximately a hundred feet. I 9 think Conrad would probably know more precisely 10 these figures. But the numbers can vary, 11 depending on other conditions. 12 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes? 13 MR. ROHRLICH: My name is David 14 Rohrlich, R-O-H-R-L-I-C-H. 18 Arborway. 15 There is a picture here of a 16 low-floor articulated bus. And what I cannot 17 tell by looking at the picture is whether it's a 18 picture of a diesel bus or a CNG bus. Which is 19 it? 20 MS. BARROW: It's a rendering of 21 the CNG buses that the T has on order right now. 22 MR. ROHRLICH: So this bus -- well, 23 let me put it this way. Say I'm a billionaire, 24 and I want to buy my own low-floor articulated MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 32 1 CNG bus, and I want to have it delivered within 2 the next year. To whom do I write? Name and 3 address. 4 MS. BARROW: Well, I would say if 5 you are a billionaire, they will come to you. 6 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Neoplan is the 7 company that's providing the bus. 8 Yes? 9 MR. ALAN SMITH: The point being -- 10 Alan Smith. And that humor was grossly 11 inappropriate -- the point being those things do 12 not exist. And that is, as you say, the word 13 you use is rendering. I would say it's an act 14 of the imagination. But my question doesn't 15 deal with that. In fact this is a highly 16 imaginative report, and I expected no less. 17 My question is actually a 18 statement. It has to do with the impact of the 19 traffic. In the transcript of the meeting 20 before last, three times at least, your own 21 consultants said quote, no impact on traffic by 22 the restored trolley. Please read that. And 23 therefore, do not say what they did not. 24 Thank you. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 33 1 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes? 2 MR. SCHIMEK: Paul Schimek, 3 S-C-H-I-M-E-K, 15 Custer Street. 4 I have two questions. One is about 5 the number of stops in the bus alternative in 6 the study versus in the rail alternative. You 7 mentioned there might be fewer. I'm wondering 8 if you did a study of comparison. It looks like 9 there are 36 stops, which I think is about three 10 more than currently, because the service is 11 extended between -- the whole length of the 12 service from Forest Hills to Park Street. I 13 think the number is about 21, if you take the 11 14 bus -- the current trolley stops. 15 What would happen if you had the 16 CNG bus alternative with only 21 stops in terms 17 of travel time, in terms of the effect on 18 parking spaces, and in terms of the ridership 19 projected? 20 And before you answer that, I have 21 another question to get in there. And that is, 22 in the operating cost estimate, some of the 23 operating cost increase for CNG I assume is 24 because -- well, I don't assume anything. It's MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 34 1 -- there's a unit cost per mile, and there's an 2 amount of service -- you said it would increase 3 service. Of the four million dollar increase, 4 how much is -- is that all in increased service, 5 this additional operating cost? Or is it 6 because of the increase in the unit cost of 7 service per vehicle mile? 8 MS. BARROW: I'm going to answer in 9 reverse order. 10 The increased cost associated with 11 CNG reflects the increased cost of the CNG, the 12 increased fuel cost and the fuel consumption. 13 So there are two things going on there, the 14 increased service, more bus service, as well as 15 increased cost for that service. 16 For the speculation about "what 17 would happen if" I'm going to let Vijay see if 18 he could guess. 19 The question was, if the bus made 20 fewer stops, what might happen? 21 MR. MAHAL: Well, obviously the bus 22 ridership would decrease. By what extent, I 23 think we basically have to run the model and 24 see. But the fact that in the bus alternative, MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 35 1 the light rail continues to exist from Heath 2 Street on, I would imagine the reduction will 3 not be very significant. 4 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes, sir? 5 MR. FRANCIS: Martin Francis, 93 6 Westchester Road, Jamaica Plain. 7 Three points. Who informed you 8 folks that driving a bus in the rush hour from 9 Park Street, making 36 stops back to Forest 10 Hills, can be done in 41 minutes? 11 (Laughter) 12 That's a tough question, I guess. 13 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Conrad? 14 MR. MISEK: The way we put the 15 running times together was a composite between 16 the existing 39 and the existing 55. So we do 17 run a bus from Park Street to Copley every half 18 hour during the rush hour, and we do run buses 19 from Copley down to Forest Hills every four 20 minutes in the rush hour. So to question your 21 question, the figure is the sum of the existing 22 numbers that we have at the moment. 23 MR. FRANCIS: You have never even 24 taken the time to run a continuous vehicle from MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 36 1 point A to point B? You are taking this analogy 2 -- this system and this system and adding them 3 together. Is that correct? 4 MR. MISEK: That is correct, yes. 5 MR. FRANCIS: I don't think it 6 would take a lot of time and effort on the T's 7 part to run a couple of trips. Because I don't 8 think you can do it in 41 minutes. I don't 9 think you can drive your car in 41 minutes in 10 the middle of a rush hour from Park Street. On 11 Tremont Street, to go from Park Street Station 12 to Boylston takes five minutes. You can't -- 13 it almost -- it can't be done. 14 Second, does the T have any 15 hardcopy paper that you can show us that so 16 states that at any time when the old streetcars 17 were running, the streetcar caused an emergency 18 vehicle not to get where it was supposed to get 19 on time? That would be a matter of record if it 20 existed. It would have to be. 21 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I'm not aware 22 of any document in writing other than -- 23 MR. FRANCIS: So, I know the Boston 24 police and the fire department -- the T MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 37 1 requested a letter. Now, whether it 2 said, "write a letter saying that" -- 3 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: You can make 4 that inference. But we didn't do that, but you 5 could make that inference. 6 MR. FRANCIS: Okay. I'm just 7 saying it could be. And I'm not going to use an 8 inference, but the fact of the matter is there 9 is no documentation anywhere that I know of that 10 so states, that's ever held up. 11 Last question. When you indicated 12 that the electrification of the wires that were 13 taken down from Heath Street back to Park Street 14 would also need signaling, signals -- did you 15 say that? 16 MS. BARROW: Yes. 17 MR. FRANCIS: What signals are you 18 talking about? 19 MS. BARROW: The entire power 20 system has to be upgraded. 21 MR. FRANCIS: Name a signal. Tell 22 me about a signal, any signal. 23 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Well, I don't 24 think you are talking traffic signals now. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 38 1 MR. FRANCIS: No, you don't touch 2 the traffic signals. Now, what signals are you 3 talking about? 4 MR. SCHEIER: For on-street 5 running, there wouldn't be any signal 6 requirement. 7 MR. FRANCIS: Thank you. 8 MR. SCHEIER: There would be some 9 communications requirements. 10 MR. FRANCIS: Thank you. 11 Communications requirements. So that's vehicle 12 to vehicle to vehicle. 13 MR. SCHEIER: No, it would go from 14 along the alignment to the control center. It's 15 called AVI. It provides information so the 16 control center knows where each -- 17 MR. FRANCIS: But that's not a 18 signal. Those aren't signals. 19 MS. BARROW: I lumped signals and 20 communications together. 21 MR. FRANCIS: Okay. Thank you. 22 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Someone who 23 hasn't spoken. Yes? 24 MR. REID: Jim Reid, 15 Edgerly MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 39 1 Road, Boston. 2 I took the bus tonight, and it ran 3 right down the middle of the track and took like 4 two feet over the track. It stopped in the 5 middle of the road; it didn't pull over. Even 6 if it pulled over, cars couldn't get around it. 7 It stopped traffic as much as, maybe even more 8 than a trolley, because the trolley is narrow. 9 Also I found out, with your costs, 10 you are not comparing apples to apples. You are 11 saying full-out stations, designed for the rail, 12 but you are just having a little bus stop for 13 the bus. 14 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: It won't be a 15 station in the sense that it will be a 16 structure, other than maybe a park bench or, you 17 know, something that would give the route, but 18 it wouldn't be the station construction that was 19 implied. 20 MR. REID: But you said it was like 21 a fully stocked station that you would have to 22 build that -- 23 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Well, it's a 24 platform eight inches high, a hundred fifty-feet MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 40 1 long, so it would be concrete and -- 2 MR. REID: If you are building a 3 platform for the buses, then I would say okay, 4 you're comparing apples to apples. But here 5 you're -- 6 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: But the buses 7 don't need platforms. 8 MR. REID: So you are comparing a 9 Cadillac to a Ford. 10 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Okay. 11 MR. REID: And I have never heard 12 of buses getting ridership like rail, ever. So 13 I just feel that you are fudging the results so 14 that you can promote the bus, and I would like 15 to know your true reasons why you would want to 16 promote a bus rather than a tram. 17 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Thank you for 18 your comments. 19 MS. KUSHMEREK: Jennifer Kushmerek, 20 K-U-S-H-M-E-R-E-K, 3280 Washington Street, 21 Jamaica Plain. 22 As far as the safety of -- safety 23 vehicles being able to pass, as it is right now, 24 the fire and EMS avoid Centre Street because MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 41 1 it's difficult to get around the buses. And 2 when I talk to some of the firemen, and also 3 talking to some of my relatives on the fire 4 department, they avoid Centre Street because of 5 the buses. And their plan, if they start to use 6 compressed natural gas buses, is to continue 7 avoiding that street because they won't be able 8 to get around those buses either. So it doesn't 9 have any impact on safety vehicles at all. 10 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Thank you. 11 Someone that hasn't spoken. Yes? 12 MS. CLOHERTY: I have a question 13 and a comment. 14 Parking spaces take about, per 15 vehicle, about 20 feet. You have said that it 16 takes about a hundred feet for the CNG 60-foot 17 vehicles to pull into the curb. So that's -- 18 when you said that -- I was giving them about 80 19 feet. I said maybe you need 80 feet. So you 20 are adding on -- so that's about a hundred feet 21 per parking space. You have got -- or rather 22 per bus stop. 23 You have estimated 36 bus stops for 24 the CNG. So that's 3,600 feet. So if you MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 42 1 divide 20 feet into 3,600 feet, 20 feet being 2 the number of spaces you need to park a vehicle, 3 the footage you need to park one car, 20 into 4 3,600 to me comes out to a hundred eighty 5 parking spaces lost for the CNG vehicles. Not 6 your -- not what you gave us, 38 spaces. 7 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: You are using 8 the entire length -- 9 MS. CLOHERTY: Yes, you are, 10 because you need it. 11 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: -- where the 12 120 is really based on just Centre Street, and 13 South Street and -- 14 MS. CLOHERTY: You have got to pull 15 those vehicles right to the curb, right to the 16 curb, all the way along that line. 17 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: But you are 18 comparing two different lengths. 19 MS. CLOHERTY: Oh, I don't think 20 so. You need the space to pull that vehicle in. 21 That vehicle has to be right at that curb, so 22 the front entrance and the middle and rear 23 entrance, however many entrances that vehicle is 24 going to take, at least 60 feet. And whatever MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 43 1 space it needs to pull in and then pull out. 2 Because God forbid you should block vehicular 3 traffic with the rear end of the vehicle 4 sticking out into traffic. Because this is one 5 of the benefits of CNG, you are telling us. 6 That would be -- well, I guess that's a comment. 7 It's not a question. 8 I would introduce another comment, 9 and that is, I would ask you to think of a 10 vehicle that does exist, that we can conjure it 11 up in our minds, and that's an 18-wheeler, an 12 18-wheeler truck. They are 53 feet long now. 13 And I would like us to think about maneuvering a 14 53-foot truck around the intersection of Beacon 15 Street and Park Street, which is in your plan, 16 to get these vehicles downtown. 17 And I would like you to have that 18 truck, that 18-wheeler, which we can all 19 imagine, make that turn at five o'clock, at five 20 o'clock on any given day when you have -- let's 21 do it at peak foliage season in October, when we 22 have got hordes of tourists in the downtown, 23 when we have the Beantown Trolley, Olde Town 24 Trolley, any other trolley, sight-seeing MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 44 1 vehicles, parked not just at the curb but 2 double-parked at that intersection, and you try 3 to keep the schedule that you are talking about. 4 You can articulate the vehicle, as 5 Paul has pointed out. You are still not going 6 to get around that tight turn every single day, 7 no matter what the weather, no matter what the 8 situation. It's unrealistic. Somebody is not 9 going -- somebody here isn't going to drive that 10 vehicle. Somebody here isn't. I just think 11 that you are most unrealistic in your 12 estimations of what you would like to do. 13 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Thank you. 14 Yes, ma'am? 15 MS. SIMPSON: Diane Simpson, 263 16 Chestnut Avenue. 17 I've got three questions here. 18 "Additional E branch service would require 19 reduced service to other Green Line branches." 20 I have a question about that. It seems to me 21 that all you would be doing would be extending 22 the Heath Street line. Is that not correct? 23 You would be extending the length of the 24 Arborway line beyond Heath Street to Forest MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 45 1 Hills. So I'm confused about why doing that 2 would require reduced service on the other Green 3 Line branches. 4 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Why don't you 5 answer that question. 6 MS. BARROW: In fact, it's not just 7 the lengthening, because these headways on the E 8 Line now are nine minutes, and if you go to six 9 minutes, ten trains an hour, you are actually 10 putting more trains through Copley than you were 11 before. So it's not that each one just goes a 12 little further. It's actually increasing 13 through Copley Junction, and that is at 14 capacity. 15 MS. SIMPSON: Okay. So that 16 answers that question. 17 My two other questions are actually 18 related. If you think about the worsening of 19 the traffic, you said the light rail would 20 periodically worsen the traffic. Now, you say 21 in your document here that you are going to have 22 36,190 CNG transit trips. I'm wondering if, in 23 your traffic study, did you do any calculations 24 about how the CNG buses were going to affect the MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 46 1 downtown traffic? Because that's 36,190 transit 2 trips that are currently not downtown that would 3 be there. 4 MS. BARROW: No, that is -- not all 5 of those trips are on the new CNG bus. That 6 ridership number is ridership from Forest Hills 7 to Park. The light rail is still going to exist 8 from Heath Street up to Lechmere. So it's not 9 36 thousand people on the bus. It's 36 thousand 10 transit trips. 11 MR. MAHAL: It's combined, the 12 light rail and -- 13 MS. BARROW: All modes of transit. 14 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: The corridor. 15 MS. BARROW: The corridor. 16 MS. SIMPSON: All right. So can 17 you tell me how many strictly just CNG buses 18 would be on that route? 19 MR. MAHAL: It's around 23 thousand 20 on the CNG. 21 MS. SIMPSON: Twenty-three 22 thousand? 23 MR. MAHAL: Yes. And around 13 24 thousand on the LRT between Heath and Park. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 47 1 MS. SIMPSON: Okay. And in your 2 traffic study did you do any study to see how 3 that would impact on the traffic downtown? 4 MR. MAHAL: Well, the 23 thousand 5 trips on the CNG can be accommodated with the 6 current three to four-minute headway, so in 7 terms of traffic impacts, it would be exactly 8 the same as the current Route 39 bus, which is 9 also running at a four-minute headway. 10 (Laughter) 11 MS. SIMPSON: What I'm asking you 12 is the effect of the additional buses downtown 13 which currently you don't have. 14 MR. MAHAL: Okay. We haven't done 15 any traffic impact on that. 16 MR. KURLAND: You haven't? 17 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes, sir. 18 MR. BARKER: Hi. David Barker. 19 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Address, 20 please? 21 MR. BARKER: Oh, I'm sorry. My 22 address is 57 Cameron Ave. 23 And my question is -- actually I 24 have two questions. One is for the 41-minute MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 48 1 trip. Is that based on the MBTA -- I understand 2 this was based on two bus routes which 3 intersect. Is it based on the MBTA's scheduled 4 travel time, or ride checks, the measure of the 5 actual travel time? 6 MR. MISEK: It's based on the ride 7 check data, the most recent ride check data that 8 we have, so it's based on actual experience, 9 which does jibe fairly well with the schedules 10 that we have out there now. 11 MR. BARKER: And my other question 12 is -- and I apologize, this may have been 13 covered during the presentation, which I missed 14 all of it -- but in terms of the CNG bus 15 service, we are talking about the buses pulling 16 in and pulling out, and we are talking about 17 travel times based on comparison with the 18 existing routes. 19 Have you looked at the possibility 20 of giving it more of a Rapid Transit or 21 Silverline treatment and having bus stops with 22 the curb stick out into the street, seeing as 23 you can't park there anyway, so that the bus 24 wouldn't have to pull in and out and slow down, MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 49 1 and have it bring the level of service of the 2 buses up? 3 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: For purposes 4 of this analysis, that was not included. But if 5 we were to go forward with the CNG alternative, 6 I think those kinds of amenities, as well as 7 consolidation of some stops, could be evaluated 8 and considered. Because those kinds of 9 amenities are exactly what Washington Street 10 will have. And we will probably try to build 11 on, hopefully, the success of that with this. 12 So we would look at it, but it's not part of 13 this analysis. 14 Yes? 15 MR. KYPER: My name is John Kyper. 16 I live at 111 Centre Street in Roxbury. 17 I see that many assumptions in this 18 thing are presented as established fact, that 19 many people have addressed. I think the most 20 egregious is where you claim that it will take 21 41 minutes to get from Park Street to Forest 22 Hills, five minutes -- six minutes longer than 23 the light rail would. 24 One of the things that -- I want to MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 50 1 get to Diane's, back to Diane's point for a 2 second. Where you say that the additional E 3 branch service would require reduced service to 4 the other Green Line branches, this implies that 5 the Green Line is operating at capacity today. 6 That is not true. Because I have read the 1946 7 annual report of your predecessor agency, the 8 Boston Elevated Railway, which said 1946 was the 9 year of the system's highest ridership. The 10 section of track between Copley and Boylston had 11 a car running through it, a unit, a one-, two- 12 or three-car train, running through it about 13 every minute and a quarter. 14 And the Green Line sees nowhere 15 near that intensity of traffic today. And what 16 you are saying is that you cannot run the system 17 as well as you were able to do it 55 years ago. 18 (Applause) 19 So it's a very sad commentary about 20 the deterioration of public transportation in 21 Boston. I have lived here just over 30 years, 22 and I can testify from personal experience how 23 much it has deteriorated in that time. 24 The -- you know, there is a MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 51 1 question -- I have worked on the whole 2 Washington Street issue for a long, long time, 3 and the whole issue about, does this low-floor 4 articulated CNG bus really exist. You are 5 generating specifications for what will be at 6 best a very expensive special order. And very 7 complicated by the fact that the Federal Transit 8 Administration does not approve of the fuel line 9 articulation, you know, going through the 10 articulation, because of the danger of 11 explosion. 12 And another assumption that you 13 talk about, finally, is that you are going to be 14 using a facility at Southampton Street. Three 15 weeks ago I was at the public hearing at the 16 MBTA police station at Southampton Street, and 17 the merchants in Newmarket Square were furious 18 about the whole proposal and what it would do to 19 their businesses. They were, you know, in 20 positive disbelief at the glib assumptions of 21 your number crunchers and computer modelers that 22 pumping several dozen articulated buses onto an 23 already gridlocked street today is not going to 24 affect traffic. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 52 1 And the worst part of it is that in 2 order get out to the Arborway from Southampton 3 Street you have to -- you would have to do a 4 long dead-head route practically the entire 5 length of Columbia Road and through Franklin 6 Park or around Franklin Park, to get out to the 7 Arborway. That makes no sense, and certainly 8 it's not going to reduce pollution. 9 And you claim also, finally, that 10 you are going to have to buy more light rail 11 vehicles. Well, when your entire Type 8 order 12 is finally up and running, whenever that is, you 13 will have more than you will need to run your 14 existing system. So I don't see that you 15 necessarily need to buy more vehicles. 16 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Well, number 17 one, the CNG articulated vehicles have been 18 ordered and they are being manufactured. Number 19 two, we accept the public process on the 20 Southampton Street Yard and we are going through 21 that. And number three, all of the Type 8 22 vehicles are committed to expand the capacity if 23 possible of the streetcar trains on the Green 24 Line, so they are committed. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 53 1 Yes, sir? 2 MR. CARRIER: My name is Douglas 3 Carrier. I live at 20 Montfern Avenue, 4 Brighton. 5 I came over here tonight, I was 6 here for the last meeting. I am very interested 7 to see what the outcome will be of what I call 8 the battle. I'm a resident of the city. 9 I'd just like to point out a couple 10 of things before I get into this sheet of paper. 11 It's a magazine I get monthly, Metro, I get at 12 work. And it claims that Boston is the fourth 13 largest city in the country with rail 14 operations. 15 Well, I'm not proud of that. We 16 may be fourth, but when the situation is like 17 this, it is kind of embarrassing for a city to 18 be that large and have things the way they are. 19 Secondly I lost, my community lost, 20 the battle a few years for the A Line over in 21 Brighton to Watertown. And since then they have 22 dug up the tracks a year and a half ago. I'm 23 not sure how familiar you people are with the 24 area, but from Oak Square to Newton Corner, MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 54 1 which is where the Mass. Turnpike is, there's 2 two roads that have access to that corner, 3 Washington Street and Tremont Street. 4 Streetcars used to go up Tremont Street. 5 Now, if you are coming from Newton 6 Corner, you cannot access Washington Street to 7 get to Brighton. It's one-way. You can only go 8 to Newton Corner; you can't come from Newton 9 Corner. So now that the trolley tracks are 10 gone, there is so much traffic down Tremont 11 Street, and that traffic is backed up from Oak 12 Square almost to Newton Corner. That's almost 13 two miles. When there were streetcar tracks 14 there, even though there was no service, there 15 was no traffic. 16 Now, I would just like to get into 17 this: The T's slogan that it's the alternative 18 route. They are trying to promote The Ride for 19 public transit. Well, if I lived out here I 20 wouldn't want to ride a bus. I would want to 21 ride light rail. Light rail is the future of 22 transit, according to this magazine. I just 23 don't want to ride a bus. And tonight it took 24 me 53 minutes to come from Copley to here. So MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 55 1 that 41 minutes is crap. 2 And I have come out here many 3 times, because I grew up out here. I grew up 4 in Roslindale, where my parents still live. I 5 have ridden this bus 27 times, and I have never 6 made it to Forest Hills in less than 50 minutes. 7 So I don't know how these big buses are going to 8 do that. 9 And I have just got a few more 10 things. Buses pulling into curbs, that's great 11 for public safety, but as far as quality of 12 overhead time, that bus can sometimes take two 13 minutes to pull out of that curb because the 14 cars keep coming, boom boom boom. And if I'm 15 behind a bus, I'm the same way. I hate it when 16 buses pull over to the curb. It slows me down. 17 Streetcars are in the middle of the 18 road. They don't get blocked by trucks. Once 19 they reach the median further down the road, 20 they sail through right into downtown Boston. 21 As far as emergency vehicles, if 22 you folks were here the last time, we had the 23 Carmen's union president here, and he said that 24 operators of the light rail vehicles actually MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 56 1 protect the fire trucks and police cars and 2 ambulances, that they will stop in certain 3 conditions to let those vehicles through. 4 Now, as far as the peak headways, I 5 know a little bit about this. At least I like 6 to think I do. As far as peak headways, it says 7 four minutes right now, which is fine. But when 8 you bring on a 60-foot bus that can seat a lot 9 more people, the T is going to be smart and cut 10 the vehicles down. They are going to cut 11 vehicles, which is probably going to bring you 12 up to possibly a six-minute headway, because 13 that vehicle holds more people. So they are 14 going to take the vehicles off, and you know, 15 you'll have lost the vehicles. 16 And to tell you the truth you have 17 already lost vehicles, according to the magazine 18 that comes out from the BSRA. For the year 2000 19 report it said that there were 22 buses on this 20 line, in 2000, and now there's only 18, 21 according to the BSRA report. What happened? 22 You are cutting service. 23 I think I have just got one more 24 thing. As far as the street parking goes for MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 57 1 light rail versus buses, you are going to take 2 away parking, a hundred twenty spaces, but 3 that's the whole point; it's an alternative 4 route. You can take a streetcar to ride to 5 work, to ride to school, so why take a car? 6 That's the whole point, to get rid of vehicles. 7 That's the point of the MBTA, to provide 8 transit. 9 Thank you. 10 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Mr. Salimbene. 11 MR. SALIMBENE: Thank you, Dennis. 12 Welcome back to Jamaica Plain. 13 If I could just make a comment, I 14 have some specific questions that maybe you 15 could help answer. But I think that the point 16 you made about, you have to purchase more light 17 rail vehicles because the T is committed to 18 providing streetcar service, really -- on the 19 other lines -- really does speak to the issue of 20 equity regarding the way the MBTA treats this 21 neighborhood vis-a-vis the way it treats other 22 neighborhoods. 23 When the service was suspended in 24 1985 we were being served with a six-minute MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 58 1 headway, and the other lines were being served 2 with whatever headways they were being served 3 with at that time. I think they ranged from 4 between five and a half minutes to seven minutes 5 or so. 6 The suggestion in the regulation is 7 that that time and that service in 1985 be 8 restored. And so what you have done, and to 9 your credit, is you have attempted to improve 10 service on the other lines. But by coming to us 11 now and saying to us, "You can't have this 12 service," basically what you are doing is you 13 are asking the Jamaica Plain community to pay 14 for the improvements you have been able to 15 provide to Newton and Brookline and the other 16 lines. And that's an equity issue that I take 17 seriously, and that's also offensive. And I 18 don't take easy offense, but it sounds offensive 19 to me. 20 But let me see if you can give me 21 some specific answers to questions. I'm going 22 to start at the back of your handout and work 23 forward. And if questions have been asked, then 24 probably two- or three-word answers would be MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 59 1 helpful. 2 I'm looking at the page that's 3 entitled, "Develop an operationally effective 4 solution as a goal." It's probably -- it's 5 several pages from the back. 6 MR. SCHEIER: Three. 7 MR. SALIMBENE: Thank you. 8 With regard to the capital costs, 9 in calculating the capital costs per rider, what 10 specific factors do you consider in compiling 11 the capital costs? I assume one of them is the 12 cost of the vehicles. 13 MS. BARROW: Yes. The acquisition 14 cost of 16 vehicles. 15 MR. SALIMBENE: Okay. 16 MS. BARROW: Plus track. The 17 roadway has to be rebuilt. 18 MR. SALIMBENE: Is the MBTA going 19 to rebuild the road? 20 MS. BARROW: I believe in Boston, 21 the City of Boston rebuilds the road. 22 MR. SALIMBENE: So that's a cost 23 that the T does not incur, but the city incurs. 24 MS. BARROW: The cost is, it's a MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 60 1 cost that would be incurred in conjunction with 2 redoing the track. When you tear up the street, 3 you have to redo the track. 4 MR. SALIMBENE: With regard to 5 that, do you have a figure for the cost of 6 rebuilding the track from Huntington Avenue to 7 Heath Street that was just done, so that we know 8 what the actual cost is per quarter mile or half 9 mile? 10 MS. BARROW: I don't have that. 11 MR. SALIMBENE: Is that a figure, 12 Dennis, that is in the report? Is that 13 calculated in the report you are going to 14 provide? 15 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: We didn't use 16 it, so it's not going to be in the report. But 17 we can try to get you the costs associated with 18 that. 19 MR. SALIMBENE: Well, we would like 20 -- we would expect, of course, that the cost 21 that you calculated into your figure would be 22 the actual cost that was incurred in the 23 construction of that section of rail. Or did 24 you use another cost factor? MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 61 1 MS. BARROW: We made general 2 estimates based on linear feet and unit costs, 3 not a design-based cost. 4 MR. SALIMBENE: With regard to the 5 CNG costs, I think we were aware of the cost per 6 light rail vehicle because we know what the 7 contract was with Breda. I think it was one 8 point eight million per car. 9 MS. BARROW: Well -- 10 MR. SALIMBENE: Well, it's in the 11 URS study, and I'm sure you can go back and look 12 it up. 13 What is the cost per bus for the 14 60-foot articulated CNG? 15 MS. BARROW: Six hundred 16 eighty-five thousand. 17 MR. SALIMBENE: And is that the 18 actual contract price? That was also the price 19 that was calculated in the URS study but that -- 20 MS. BARROW: It's the unit price 21 that the MBTA has in its contract with Neoplan. 22 MR. SALIMBENE: And what did you 23 actually calculate as the cost per bus: 685 24 thousand? MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 62 1 MS. BARROW: Per bus. 2 MR. SALIMBENE: And that was 3 calculated out over how many years? In other 4 words -- 5 MS. BARROW: We didn't count -- 6 these are not life-cycle costs. They're a cost 7 that it would take to implement the alternative 8 at the outset, but not, they are not an 9 annualized -- not life-cycle costs. 10 MR. SALIMBENE: Why did you not do 11 the life-cycle costs? 12 MS. BARROW: Because in conjunction 13 with calculating the capital cost of the 14 alternative, you would -- what we do is 15 calculate the outlay to the agency, not over 16 time. 17 MR. SALIMBENE: When -- I 18 understand that. But when the 1987 Arborway 19 study was done, however, that study projected 20 capital costs and operating costs projected over 21 a life cycle, for the simple reason that the 22 light rail vehicle is a 25-year vehicle, that is 23 to last 25 years, and a bus is only an 11-year 24 vehicle. And so you end up having to buy two MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 63 1 point -- two point one buses per light rail 2 vehicle. So it's obvious to me why that wasn't 3 calculated in. 4 MS. BARROW: Well -- 5 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: We appreciate 6 your comment. 7 MR. SALIMBENE: So anyway, I wanted 8 to get back into the factors that go into 9 calculating cost. We have the acquisition of 10 vehicles, track work, roadway work -- 11 MS. BARROW: The stations. 12 MR. SALIMBENE: The stations. 13 MS. BARROW: A hundred fifty foot 14 platform. 15 MR. SALIMBENE: And can I assume 16 also -- 17 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: The catenary. 18 MR. SALIMBENE: The catenary. 19 And can I assume also that when you 20 calculate -- and what factors went into 21 calculating the cost for the bus, other than the 22 bus itself? 23 MS. BARROW: The reconstruction of 24 the roadway. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 64 1 MR. SALIMBENE: And that again is 2 done by the city? 3 MR. SCHEIER: The removal of the 4 tracks. 5 MS. BARROW: Yes, the removal of 6 the tracks. 7 MR. SCHEIER: The work associated 8 with the removal of the tracks. 9 MR. SALIMBENE: Anything else? 10 MS. BARROW: The stops. 11 MR. SALIMBENE: And what design -- 12 what are the cost factors for each of the stops? 13 What are the stops going to look like? 14 MS. BARROW: We made a broad 15 assumption that they would have information 16 kiosks, better signage, striping, a shelter. 17 MR. SALIMBENE: And they would be 18 pull-in stops as opposed to stops that are in 19 the lane of traffic, so to speak? 20 MS. BARROW: Yes. 21 MR. SALIMBENE: And did you 22 calculate that cost for the stops all the way 23 along the entire route to Park Street? In other 24 words, what are the stops going to look like on MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 65 1 Huntington Avenue and what are they going to 2 look like on Boylston Street? 3 MS. BARROW: We assumed -- we made 4 the assumption that every stop gets enhanced. 5 MR. SALIMBENE: And you figured 6 that it was about 36 stops? 7 MS. BARROW: Yes. 8 MR. SALIMBENE: Is there anything 9 else that you haven't given to me or indicated 10 to me that you would also include in calculating 11 the costs for CNG? 12 MS. BARROW: No, there's no 13 facility costs. 14 MR. SALIMBENE: Can I go next to 15 the route? I'm sorry, I'm going to go to the 16 "achieve regional air quality standards," the 17 goal page. Can you tell me, in the box entitled 18 "results for the Arborway Corridor," can you 19 tell me how you calculated the pollutants of 20 light rail service versus CNG service in the 21 corridor? 22 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Vijay, do you 23 want to take that one? 24 MR. MAHAL: Like you said, the MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 66 1 emissions produced as a result of running the 2 light rail was not incorporated in the numbers. 3 Okay? 4 MR. SALIMBENE: Well, but you have 5 given numbers for light rail. 6 MS. BARROW: The generation of 7 electricity. 8 MR. MAHAL: Yes. Let me -- the 9 pollution created by the generation of 10 electricity that runs the light rail was never 11 figured in. Okay? Given that, within the 12 corridor what we did was basically looked at the 13 total pollution produced by all the automobile 14 traffic in the corridor. We defined the 15 corridor, and that's what we calculated. 16 In the case of the light rail 17 transit alternative, the diesel bus disappears. 18 So that pollution, amount of pollution created 19 by diesel bus, is taken out. At the same time, 20 with the light rail transit system, because 21 Route 39 disappears, there is going to be a 22 small decrease in transit trips. In other 23 words, about five hundred trips would be taking 24 the automobile. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 67 1 The pollution generated by those -- 2 MR. SALIMBENE: I'm sorry. Is that 3 as a result of your finding that there would be 4 fewer riders on light rail? 5 MR. MAHAL: Systemwide, yes -- no, 6 systemwide there would be fewer transit trips. 7 See, what happens is -- 8 MR. SALIMBENE: No, hang on a 9 second. If it's systemwide, then surely those 10 pollution factors are felt systemwide rather 11 than within the corridor. 12 MR. MAHAL: Within the corridor, 13 the reduction in transit trips, namely these 14 five hundred trips, they are primarily in the 15 corridor, because that's where Route 39 bus 16 disappears. Transit routes are not going to be 17 reduced elsewhere in the region. 18 MR. SALIMBENE: Well, that's not 19 true, because you indicated on another page that 20 you had calculated a systemwide loss of trips. 21 MR. MAHAL: Yes, the systemwide 22 loss is happening in the corridor. That's what 23 I am saying. For the whole system -- see, the 24 difference between total transit trips between MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 68 1 the CNG bus and the light rail transit system is 2 in the order of some 11, 12 hundred. Okay? 3 Now, when the pollution was -- when 4 the air -- excuse me. Okay. In the case of the 5 light rail transit system, you have 6 approximately 11 hundred less transit trips. 7 Now, you convert this -- these are auto trips. 8 These are person trips. You convert this to 9 vehicle trips, assuming in each car there's 10 approximately one point one person. 11 Now, these vehicle trips, they 12 travel within the corridor. Approximately the 13 trip length is about four to four point two 14 miles. So there is a increase in vehicle miles 15 traveled, approximately about one thousand 16 vehicles times four point two miles, it's about 17 four thousand vehicle miles traveled in the 18 light rail transit system; there's about four 19 thousand extra vehicle miles traveled. 20 Pollution created by those extra four thousand 21 vehicle miles is figured in this light rail 22 calculation. 23 MR. SALIMBENE: And why is the CNG 24 calculation then basically the same? MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 69 1 MR. MAHAL: These numbers, to be 2 very frank with you, these numbers, we have 3 rounded them off. For all practical purposes 4 these numbers are so close that they are well 5 within the margin of error of the model, so -- 6 MR. SALIMBENE: But my question to 7 you then is, if light rail is going to see the 8 loss of riders and CNG is going to have an 9 increase, or at least a higher level of riders 10 than light rail, why doesn't the CNG 11 statistics -- why don't the CNG statistics read 12 higher than they do, rather than being 13 equivalent? 14 MR. MAHAL: Because in the CNG bus, 15 not -- I don't remember which particular 16 pollutant it is, but one particular pollutant, 17 CNG actually pollutes more than the diesel 18 buses. 19 MR. SALIMBENE: I know. It's the 20 hydrocarbons. 21 MR. MAHAL: Is it? Okay. 22 MR. SALIMBENE: Well, maybe I can 23 ask a more general question. I understand it's 24 difficult to kind of pull figures out of the MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 70 1 air. But what factors actually determine 2 ridership? What was it in the way you ran the 3 study that determined your ridership? 4 MR. MAHAL: Okay. First of all, 5 the ridership depends on many variables. Most 6 of them are logically -- what we think are 7 logical variables, for example, the travel time, 8 travel cost, directness -- 9 MR. SALIMBENE: When you say travel 10 cost, you mean cost to the rider? 11 MR. MAHAL: Yes, the fare. And 12 the most important of all, the frequency of 13 service. In the Arborway corridor, in one 14 alternative, in the CNG bus alternative, you 15 have about eight trains running from Heath 16 Street to Park Street every hour, and you have 17 about 15 buses running from Forest Hills to Park 18 Street. So in the common section you have about 19 -- 15 plus eight is 23, basically, vehicles. So 20 the level of service in that common corridor is 21 quite high. 22 When you move to the light rail 23 transit, you don't have the bus alternative. 24 You have just lost 15 buses an hour. And at MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 71 1 six-minute headways, you are providing ten 2 trains an hour. So in the ridership model, 3 basically it looks at -- when it estimates the 4 transit ridership in the corridor, it looks at 5 the all-around level of transit service 6 provided. 7 MR. SALIMBENE: Does that include 8 capacity? 9 MR. MAHAL: Capacity of what? 10 MR. SALIMBENE: Well, the 11 capacity -- 12 MR. MAHAL: Of the transit vehicle 13 itself? 14 MR. SALIMBENE: Of the service. 15 MR. MAHAL: The capacity of the 16 service is not figured in. 17 MR. SALIMBENE: Why not? 18 MR. MAHAL: Because that is -- only 19 the new generation of transportation models, 20 okay? you are able to -- now we are using a new 21 software, we are still experimenting with it, in 22 which you can directly indicate to the model 23 what the capacity is available on the system. 24 MR. SALIMBENE: But doesn't it make MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 72 1 sense that if you increase the capacity, you 2 have a very good chance of increasing your 3 ridership, whereas if you reduce your capacity, 4 you have a very good chance of losing your 5 ridership? So doesn't capacity figure in to the 6 same extent, or shouldn't it figure in, 7 regardless of what the software does? 8 Just let's think like people rather 9 than machines. If you consider your fare as a 10 variable, and you consider your trip time as a 11 variable, and you consider the frequency of 12 service as a variable, would you not also 13 consider your capacity? 14 MR. MAHAL: You should, because -- 15 that's a very good question, because 16 overcrowding, really congested cars or buses, 17 discourage people from taking the transit in the 18 first place. You are absolutely right. 19 The way that we handle this is in 20 the -- basically when we calculate the model for 21 a given year, before we apply it to the 22 different alternatives, what we do is, there are 23 certain parameters in the model that we can 24 adjust, that we randomize several times, until MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 73 1 the simulated ridership from the model is 2 reasonably close to the observed ridership. 3 When we reach that point, then we are reasonably 4 comfortable in applying the model to other 5 alternatives. 6 Now, there are several factors -- 7 just like you said, the overcrowding factor, and 8 there may be a few other factors, like Mr. X may 9 think that the light rail transit system is 10 esthetically very beautiful and it adds 11 character to the neighborhood and that's what he 12 loves to ride, but these are -- but some of 13 these aspects cannot be captured in the model. 14 MR. SALIMBENE: I understand. 15 MR. MAHAL: In order to account for 16 that, we have certain parameters that we adjust. 17 So you are right. The capacity is 18 not directly input into in the model, but during 19 the calibration process, we think we have 20 accounted for several variables which cannot be 21 explicitly put in the model. 22 MR. SALIMBENE: Thanks. I think I 23 am taking a lot of time, and I really do 24 apologize. Just a few more questions, and I MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 74 1 will try and run through them very quickly. 2 Could you go to the page that 3 actually gives the route? 4 Maybe you can help me, Dennis. I'm 5 just wondering what streets exactly we are 6 talking about when we get down to the end of 7 Huntington Avenue. 8 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Conrad, could 9 you respond? 10 MR. SALIMBENE: Conrad, do you want 11 to help me with this? The left-hand turn off of 12 Huntington to Boylston, is that Dalton Street? 13 MR. MISEK: That's Dalton and 14 Belvidere, precisely what the 39 uses, yes. 15 MR. SALIMBENE: And then when you 16 get to the -- just beyond Arlington Street 17 station, that's a left onto Charles? 18 MR. MISEK: Yes. 19 MR. SALIMBENE: And then up Beacon, 20 and when you get to the top of Beacon, that's 21 Park Street? 22 MR. MISEK: That's correct. 23 MR. SALIMBENE: It's not labeled, 24 but when you get to the top of Beacon Street MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 75 1 there -- 2 MR. MISEK: Yes. 3 MR. SALIMBENE: -- that's Park 4 Street? It's not labeled, but it's Park Street? 5 MR. MISEK: Yes. 6 MR. SALIMBENE: Then I understand 7 the route the rest of the way out. When you get 8 to Stuart, and then you are heading outbound, 9 you take a right over to Saint James, you are 10 going right around the Transit Building? 11 MR. MISEK: That's correct. 12 MR. SALIMBENE: Thanks. 13 One last set of questions. I'm 14 sorry. 15 I'm on the page entitled "CNG bus 16 alternative service overview." You have 17 answered one question about the cost in the 18 contract. And the price you have given me is 19 actually the contract price for the -- the 20 60-foot articulated is going to be about 685 21 thousand per bus? 22 MS. BARROW: Yes. 23 MR. SALIMBENE: Do you have any 24 idea from the manufacturer when that bus is MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 76 1 going to be available? When it's going to be 2 delivered? 3 MS. BARROW: 2002. 4 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: The end of 5 2002. Around November, I think I heard. 6 MR. SALIMBENE: We heard from 7 others in the city that the T has indicated to 8 one of the environmental agencies, relating to 9 Washington Street service, that the 60-foot CNG 10 bus would not be available until 2004. Is that 11 something you are aware of? 12 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I hadn't heard 13 that. I know that they were going to start 14 service in April of 2002, and they were going to 15 use a 40-foot CNG bus in the interim. But I 16 heard toward the end of 2002. I thought a 17 November time frame was mentioned to me, that 18 those buses would be in. But if you have 19 something that's different -- 20 MR. SALIMBENE: I am only hearing 21 things. 22 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: If you have 23 anything, I can check it out, if you want me to 24 check it out. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 77 1 MR. SALIMBENE: With regard to the 2 bus stops, to get to that for a second, I think 3 you indicated -- how much distance are you 4 actually -- you were very specific about the 5 light rail length. I want to know very 6 specifically what the distance is, what the 7 length is of the bus stops. We've gotten some 8 waffling answers, that "you have to look at 9 where the driveways are," et cetera. 10 I think we are entitled to some 11 specificity with regard to that number in view 12 of the fact that you were very specific about 13 the light rail length. What is the length of 14 these bus stops? 15 MS. BARROW: What we did is we 16 assumed that each bus stop would have to be 17 lengthened by 20 feet. So that's where you get 18 38 spaces, giving up roughly one parking spot 19 per stop. It's actually a little more because 20 there's a digit after the decimal point. 21 So it's -- we assumed each bus stop 22 would be as long as it is today plus 20 feet. 23 So I -- 24 MR. SALIMBENE: Okay. I'm sorry. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 78 1 And did you calculate -- 2 MR. MISEK: Typically we spec 3 between 60 and 80 feet for a bus stop today. 4 And the reason that that length varies is a 5 function of whether the stop is located at the 6 far or the near side of an intersection or 7 whether it's in the midblock area. Really the 8 vehicle dynamics of a 60-foot versus a 40-foot 9 vehicle are about the same because the wheelbase 10 is about the same, given the articulation joint. 11 So the swing is not really the 12 issue. The issue is the vehicle length. If you 13 have a 20-foot longer vehicle, you need a 14 20-foot longer stop. All the stops are not a 15 consistent length. 16 MR. SALIMBENE: And that would 17 account for pulling the bus fully out of the 18 line of traffic? 19 MR. MISEK: Exactly. 20 MR. SALIMBENE: And so 60 to 80 is 21 a consistent, both for 40-foot -- 60 to 80-foot 22 stops is consistent -- is appropriate for either 23 40-foot buses or 60-foot buses? 24 MR. MISEK: No, I wouldn't say MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 79 1 that. I said we spec between 60 and 80 foot now 2 because we don't have any vehicles that are 3 longer than 40 feet. 4 MR. SALIMBENE: So what are you 5 going to spec for a 60-foot? 6 MR. MISEK: The same thing plus 20 7 feet. 8 MR. SALIMBENE: So you are going to 9 spec 80 to a hundred. Is that correct? So the 10 length of these stops will be between 80 and a 11 hundred? 12 MR. MISEK: And it's a function of 13 where they are located. 14 MR. SALIMBENE: Right. 15 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I think what I 16 heard Monica say was that they took the existing 17 ones there and added 20, so whatever the 18 existing ones are, plus 20. And I'm not sure 19 what the existing ones are. 20 MR. MISEK: They vary. That's the 21 issue. They vary. 22 MR. SALIMBENE: One last question 23 and I then will stop. And I really appreciate 24 the crowd's and your willingness to answer these MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 80 1 questions. 2 I want to go back to the trip time 3 again. When you do a trip time calculation, do 4 you calculate in dwell time? In other words 5 when you stop for -- you calculate into the trip 6 time not only the actual time it takes to ride 7 the ride but also the time it takes at each stop 8 to pick up and discharge passengers? 9 MR. MISEK: Yes. When we did these 10 running time assumptions -- and I really want to 11 step back for a minute and talk about that 12 41-minute figure. That 41-minute figure is a 13 composite. 14 MR. SALIMBENE: I understand that. 15 MR. MISEK: We understand that at 16 certain times during the day it will take 17 longer; we understand that at certain times 18 during the day it will take less than that. 19 What that composite figure is, is the time that 20 the driver shuts the door, leaving the terminal, 21 to the time the driver opens the door at the 22 terminal. 23 MR. SALIMBENE: At the last stop. 24 Is that it? MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 81 1 MR. MISEK: The last stop. 2 Typically we factor in between 15 and 20 percent 3 beyond that for a recovery time. So in cases 4 where trips take a little bit longer, they have 5 that time at the end of the route to be back on 6 schedule on the return trip. 7 MR. SALIMBENE: Is there a standard 8 factor that you've used for dwell time on a 9 particular route? I mean, do you assume on 10 average that a bus when it pulls into the stop 11 takes X number of seconds to load and discharge, 12 or do you not do that? 13 MR. MISEK: The only answer I can 14 give you is that it's based on prior experience. 15 Generally when we extend the route, we look at 16 what the route does in a similar area. So there 17 is no one figure that I can give you. 18 MR. SALIMBENE: And finally, the 19 41-minute trip time is an average throughout the 20 day. It's not your rush hour trip time? 21 MR. MISEK: Maybe Monica can answer 22 that. 23 MS. BARROW: I don't think I would 24 say it's an average, but it is, as he described, MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 82 1 a composite, a number based on actual ride check 2 data that is representative of the trip times we 3 have during the day. 4 MR. MISEK: We looked at a running 5 time spread of anywhere from 30 to 54 minutes. 6 MR. SALIMBENE: Thirty to 54, and 7 54 I assume would be the rush hour. 8 MR. MISEK: That's correct. 9 MR. SALIMBENE: Thank you. 10 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Okay. Those 11 who haven't talked before. 12 Yes, sir? 13 MR. CIPOLLA: My name is John 14 Cipolla, C-I-P-O-L-L-A, 46 Saint John Street, 15 Jamaica Plain. 16 I want to continue to talk about 17 the regional air quality standards, this 18 particular slide. I have been listening to your 19 comments and your reliance on your model, and I 20 was happy to hear that it was indeed calibrated 21 and gives results which are in accord with 22 measured data. 23 But what stuns me here is that the 24 numbers for light rail can be so much like the MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 83 1 numbers for compressed natural gas. And as I 2 look at the numbers here, I realize that it's 3 because some of the pollutants are not listed. 4 And I'm wondering why CO2 is not listed as a 5 pollutant. Is that not considered to be a 6 pollutant? 7 MR. MAHAL: No, no, it is. But 8 it's just that the model by which -- by the 9 way -- okay. We are supposed to calculate the 10 pollutants according to procedures that are put 11 out by DEP. And this multiplied H factor table, 12 I believe, does not have the information on CO2. 13 I'm not a hundred percent -- I want to be honest 14 with you. I'm not a hundred percent sure if it 15 has all the -- 16 MR. CIPOLLA: Well, I asked the 17 question because for every molecule of 18 compressed natural gas that is burned, there's a 19 molecule of carbon dioxide that's released into 20 the environment. 21 MR. MAHAL: Yes. 22 MR. CIPOLLA: And it's considered 23 by many people to be a pollutant. But CO2 is 24 not listed. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 84 1 Also, the loss of diesel buses from 2 the corridor results in the loss of another 3 significant pollutant, one of the most noxious 4 and carcinogenic, which is soot, particulates. 5 It's not listed here as being -- as playing a 6 role one way or the other. 7 In addition to the nitrogen oxides, 8 properly known as NOx -- the people in pollution 9 and air quality talk about "sox and nox" -- the 10 oxides of sulphur are not listed, which exists 11 in diesel fuel. And also not listed is the 12 particulates, and I already mentioned that soot 13 and other particulates are released into the 14 environment. 15 Each of these must be ameliorated 16 by the loss of diesel buses and by the 17 imposition of LRV. And I realize that having a 18 CNG bus is not -- will also have an impact on a 19 reduction in terms of sulphur dioxide, sulphur, 20 and the particulates, and it will have 21 substantial impact on the number of carbon 22 monoxide -- carbon dioxide molecules or 23 kilograms per day released into the environment. 24 Is it true to say that the MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 85 1 pollutants that you have studied here -- because 2 you are bound by regulation to look at the 3 regional impact as well as the corridor 4 impact -- is largely the pollution caused by 5 automobiles, not caused as a direct result of 6 transit decisions? 7 MR. MAHAL: Well, we did figure the 8 reduction in pollution when 39 disappears, but 9 you are right in the sense that we did not 10 address all the other pollutants, simply because 11 we were bound by the regulations to come up with 12 only these emissions. 13 MR. CIPOLLA: It's interesting, 14 because the results on public safety, aside from 15 the issues associated with emergency vehicles, 16 must be affected by the loss of particulates and 17 carcinogenic impact on the environment that 18 diesel buses produce. It is known that they 19 produce diesel soot; diesel soot is a 20 carcinogen. And so public safety is enhanced by 21 eliminating diesel buses. 22 Now, I realize that if you 23 eliminate the diesel bus, where do you go with 24 CNG or LRV? It's not listed here. So one has a MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 86 1 tendency to believe that the numbers are leaving 2 out certain things. And when you see that and 3 you feel that, you have the sense that you are 4 not hearing the whole picture. 5 And so even with these numbers, 6 from the point of view of environmental 7 protection and pollution, in the corridor or 8 regionwide, one could not say that restoration 9 of LRV service to the Arborway is infeasible. 10 Would you say that was a fair statement? 11 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Would I agree 12 with that statement that it's not infeasible? 13 MR. CIPOLLA: I am asking you, 14 wouldn't it be possible to infer from these data 15 that restoration of LRV has not been proven to 16 be infeasible? Wouldn't the environment -- 17 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: With enough 18 money, light rail vehicles can be replaced on 19 the Arborway corridor. 20 MR. CIPOLLA: I beg your pardon? 21 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: With enough 22 money, light rail could be returned to the 23 Arborway, yes. 24 MR. CIPOLLA: So that, by that I MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 87 1 interpret that you are therefore saying that you 2 have not yet determined that it's infeasible. 3 Infeasible is not the same as achievable. 4 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I think what 5 we're suggesting is that while it may be 6 infeasible -- while it may be feasible, it 7 would also be impractical. 8 MR. CIPOLLA: Infeasible I 9 believe is the word. I'm using the word 10 infeasible because I recall that that's somehow 11 in the regulation. 12 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: That's an 13 integral part, yes. You're right. 14 MR. CIPOLLA: It doesn't say most 15 cost effective. 16 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: You are 17 correct. 18 MR. CIPOLLA: It says infeasible. 19 And since that is a regulation that is a demand 20 by the DEP, I would expect that the impact on 21 regional pollution levels would be important. 22 And on this page, even though I -- I point out 23 the egregious lack of actually listing the other 24 pollutants, which I think are very important, MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 88 1 that this page in itself demonstrates that it 2 has not yet been proven that LRV restoration is 3 infeasible. 4 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Thank you. 5 Someone who has not spoken? 6 MR. CHILD: My name is Tom Child, 7 75 Saint Alphonsus Street. 8 And continuing on with the 9 environmental study and the cost study, one 10 would infer that since light rail vehicles have 11 the same polluting impact as CNG buses, and CNG 12 buses are so much cheaper for the T, why is the 13 T not moving to eliminate the Green Line as a 14 whole and just replacing them all with CNG 15 natural gas buses? One would assume that they 16 are equally as polluting from this study we have 17 here, and that the CNG buses are far cheaper. 18 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: It would be 19 obviously impractical to do so. 20 MR. CHILD: Why is it obviously 21 impractical to do so on the other lines, but not 22 on the E Line? 23 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: You know we 24 can't eliminate the Green Line. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 89 1 FROM THE AUDIENCE: You eliminated 2 ours. 3 MR. CHILD: Continuing my same 4 logic, then, is that you are saying that the 5 added CNG vehicles on the surface in the 6 downtown Boston common area -- it is impractical 7 to have more vehicles. Why? Because we all 8 know, if you have ever been down at the Boston 9 Common, that it is a parking lot at any time 10 during rush hour. And so you are suggesting 11 that we add 26 buses to that parking lot. And 12 even though we know that a hundred and three 13 years ago the City of Boston realized that 14 Tremont Ave. -- Tremont Street, excuse me -- is 15 impassable with surface vehicles; it's only 16 passable by subsurface vehicles. 17 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes, sir? 18 MR. KURLAND: I'm Jeff Kurland. I 19 live in Newton. 20 And, now that we have established 21 that returning light rail vehicles are feasible, 22 even though it may cost a little more, okay? -- 23 frankly, my understanding of the DEP regulation 24 is that you can't even consider an alternative. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 90 1 The alternative could only be considered, 2 according to the regulation, if light rail is 3 infeasible. Having not proven it to be 4 infeasible, okay? -- there's a double negative 5 connotation there, but -- I can only state that 6 according to the DEP regulation, you have to, 7 you are mandated to, return light rail vehicles 8 to the Arborway without providing any 9 alternative. It's clear in the regulation. 10 Okay? 11 I have said that at the other 12 meetings. I'm saying it now. I will say it at 13 whatever hearings they have. The regulation 14 says that unless light rail is infeasible, it 15 has to be returned. Okay. 16 Secondly, I would like to ask 17 whether the ridership model in your calibrations 18 or in any of the input or in any of the formulas 19 takes into account the clear preference, all 20 other things being equal, of people to ride rail 21 vehicles as opposed to buses. 22 There is a clear disincentive of 23 people to ride buses and a clear incentive of 24 people to ride light rail vehicles. There have MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 91 1 been some recent examples where bus lines have 2 been replaced on a one-to-one basis by light 3 rail, and ridership has increased. 4 FROM THE AUDIENCE: Dallas. 5 MR. KURLAND: Not Dallas. But it 6 did replace the exact same line. The exact same 7 line was replaced on the Spedina line in 8 Toronto, where streetcars replaced buses, and 9 ridership increased over 20 percent the first 10 year. Streetcars also replaced buses on the 11 F Market line in San Francisco. It replaced I 12 believe the -- either the 8 or 88 trolley bus 13 line, the exact same route, and ridership 14 increased -- I think ridership now is well over 15 60 percent what it was then. Okay. 16 Does your model, or at least -- 17 does your ridership model include that factor at 18 all? 19 MR. MAHAL: Okay. First of all, we 20 know from a lot of passenger service that we 21 have done that what you said is indeed right. 22 People, more people would want premium service. 23 MR. KURLAND: That's why we are 24 here. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 92 1 MR. MAHAL: Now, in the model, for 2 each station there is something called the 3 access area, the area within which -- from which 4 people come to access the station. For the 5 buses we designate approximately a quarter mile 6 as the access area. For the light rail transit 7 system, we go as far as half a mile. So, in 8 that one respect, light rail is indicated to the 9 model as more attractive. 10 MR. KURLAND: Have you also 11 considered any minor changes you can make to 12 anything like the fare structure, for example, 13 that might make the ridership on the light rail 14 for the same route to be better than it is in 15 your study? For example, I assume the model 16 includes the fact that with the buses, you have 17 a free transfer to other buses. What if you 18 allowed a free transfer from the Arborway light 19 rail line to other buses? Would that increase 20 ridership? And would that, being very simple to 21 implement, make the light rail even more 22 feasible than it is now? 23 MR. MAHAL: It will increase the 24 ridership because the cost is reduced. We did MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 93 1 not test that. 2 MR. KURLAND: You did not test 3 that. Okay. 4 It seems that you have made a lot 5 of rookie mistakes in your accounting 6 assumptions. For example, not considering the 7 service life of the vehicles. It seems to me 8 that you are using voodoo formulas for 9 ridership. And -- 10 MR. MAHAL: May I just very 11 briefly -- 12 MR. KURLAND: I'm sorry if I've 13 insulted anybody in the practice of voodoo. 14 That was not politically correct on my part. 15 (Laughter) 16 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes? 17 MR. BRITTAIN SMITH: My name is 18 Brittain Smith, and I live on Bishop Street in 19 Jamaica Plain. 20 And I have similar problems with 21 the numbers that you have come up with. It 22 seems to me in your response to Mr. Salimbene's 23 question, you indicated that primarily the 24 increase in pollutants, or the numbers for MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 94 1 pollutants on the Arborway corridor, were 2 generated primarily from increased traffic due 3 to reduced ridership on public transportation. 4 Is that correct? 5 MR. MAHAL: That's correct. 6 MR. BRITTAIN SMITH: Well, it seems 7 to me that precisely for the reasons that were 8 just adumbrated here, that it seems quite likely 9 that ridership on a, as you yourself put it, 10 premium service, might actually increase. 11 So I don't understand -- this is 12 where the voodoo comes from for us, or at least 13 the perception of some kind of manipulation. 14 Why the assumption that ridership will decrease, 15 therefore increasing pollution -- not from the 16 vehicles themselves; that should be clearly 17 noted -- but from the assumptions that you are 18 making that it would be the increased rider 19 vehicular traffic, which is based purely on an 20 assumption that you make which doesn't seem to 21 jibe with the common sense that we have been 22 hearing here in the crowd? 23 MR. MAHAL: First of all, if I were 24 to -- if I had estimated the pollution purely MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 95 1 from light rail versus buses, okay, then it 2 would be different numbers. That means I'm 3 completely ignoring what -- the pollution 4 created by vehicular traffic in the study area. 5 MR. BRITTAIN SMITH: But what you 6 are assuming about the vehicular traffic is 7 purely -- is based on the fact that you are 8 assuming that ridership on a premium service is 9 going to go down. And that seems to me -- 10 MR. MAHAL: I'm not assuming 11 anything. All I'm saying is that in the 12 ridership model, the total number of -- the way 13 people decide between transit and driving in a 14 car, that is determined on the basis of the 15 overall level of service you provide on the 16 transit side versus the other. 17 In one case you have -- in the 18 light rail case you have about eight trains or 19 ten trains running an hour. Okay? In the other 20 case you have the bus running fifteen buses an 21 hour. Okay? And -- 22 MR. BRITTAIN SMITH: I take the 23 Orange Line. And I would wait, gladly wait, the 24 extra time for the premium service. So you are MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 96 1 making -- you are saying, you are doing it 2 purely based on the number of rides, not on the 3 quality of rides. At least that's my 4 understanding of it. 5 MR. MAHAL: The -- 6 MR. BRITTAIN SMITH: And -- excuse 7 me for interrupting. I apologize. 8 And also you are not -- you are not 9 also assuming what people's attitude would be 10 towards taking it. Many of us would rather wait 11 three or four extra minutes and take a premium 12 service because it would be quicker, it would be 13 cleaner, and it would be more comfortable. It 14 would be not -- we wouldn't be having noxious 15 fumes ingested. So -- 16 MR. MAHAL: In the same way, there 17 are some people who, just like for you -- maybe 18 you don't mind waiting some time, but there are 19 some people for whom the availability or 20 frequency of service is again important. The 21 more -- 22 MR. BRITTAIN SMITH: But it's the 23 only factor you've considered. Frequency of 24 service seems to be the only factor you've MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 97 1 considered. 2 MR. MAHAL: No, it's not. 3 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Someone who 4 hasn't spoken. Yes? 5 MR. WALSH: Tom Walsh. I live at 6 476 Commonwealth Ave. 7 I have just a couple of related 8 questions and a couple of comments. First, I 9 have ridden a 60-foot articulated bus in 10 Minneapolis a few times. I don't know whether 11 it was compressed natural gas or what, but it 12 was very loud, very bumpy, and very 13 uncomfortable. 14 Having taken into account things 15 like noise pollution and, for instance, the 16 weight of these vehicles tearing up the roads, I 17 think those should be in your cost analysis. 18 And a couple of comments. First of 19 all, people block bus stops now all the time 20 illegally with their cars. And I understand 21 there's nothing you can do about that. However, 22 the longer the bus stop, the more the 23 probability that somebody will block it with 24 their car, the greater the chance that the buses MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 98 1 stop in the street, and emergency vehicles can't 2 go by. 3 The second thing is, I live in 4 Kenmore Square. I drove here tonight because I 5 couldn't take a trolley. I didn't want to take 6 a bus. If there were a trolley, I would have 7 taken it. So it's just an anecdotal piece of 8 evidence that -- CNG buses, I would have driven. 9 Trolley, I would have taken the trolley. 10 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes, sir. 11 MR. MALONEY: Fred Maloney, 20 12 Montfern Ave. in Brighton. 13 I just wanted to say one thing 14 about the Watertown line. At the time the buses 15 were put on, single buses were replacing double 16 cars. So in many cases the frequency was -- 17 went down to half. There were eight-minute cars 18 and four-minute buses. 19 And now, while the Green Line has 20 better service now overall at all times, the 21 Watertown line has less service now at every 22 hour of every day than when we had streetcars. 23 The ridership disappeared even though the 24 service was more frequent. That does not -- and MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 99 1 also the streetcars were very poorly maintained, 2 and we had the best buses they had, 3 consistently, overall. 4 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Yes? 5 MR. MOORE: My name is Fred Moore. 6 I am on the board of directors of the 7 Association for Public Transportation. I also 8 represent the Town of Saugus on the MBTA 9 advisory board and serve on their capital 10 planning committee. Believe me, the feedback 11 from this little venue is going to be fed into 12 capital planning's deliberations. 13 I just want to say that one thing 14 in the -- I want to prepare -- I have a 15 statement I have made for the record that I 16 would like to give to your stenographer. 17 And just, I would like to say that 18 the Association for Public Transportation hereby 19 fully endorses and will advocate in the public 20 forum for the restoration of Green Line E 21 service to its former terminus at Arborway. And 22 we support restoration of this service based on 23 the following considerations. 24 The technology of electric trams is MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 100 1 currently available off the shelf, has had a 2 century to be perfected, is capable of steering 3 itself, and operating in trains using simple, 4 reliable and durable engineering. 5 The self-steering feature comes 6 into play when one considers the close confines 7 of densely developed European cities, where 8 trams are widely used. Electric trams, by 9 virtue of design, are able to negotiate corners 10 and close confines that could confound the 11 standard 40 foot as well as the 60 foot 12 articulated buses proposed for Washington 13 Street. 14 Every turn and maneuver is precise 15 and error-free. Various bus schemes are and 16 have been contingent upon anticipated 17 technological breakthroughs to reach the same 18 ends, such as the ability to be automated, and 19 operate in trains to increase capacity. Higher 20 technology systems as yet unperfected would have 21 a tendency to fail in unpredictable ways, and 22 face a problem of obsolescence in the short term 23 as these technologies evolve, wiping out any 24 presumed cost advantage. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 101 1 Steel wheel technology is more 2 environmentally friendly. Unlike rubber tires, 3 a worn-out steel wheel is easily melted down to 4 be forged into a new one. Thus the loop of 5 recycling has been already perfectly closed for 6 some time. I bet you didn't put that one into 7 your pollution factors, did you? 8 Whereas rubber tires for the most 9 part continue to be a disposal problem, that 10 again relies on an anticipated but as yet 11 underdeveloped solution. Steel wheels have 12 lower rolling friction, thus higher energy 13 efficiency. 14 Fixed rail and wire systems also 15 employ regenerative braking. That is, when a 16 streetcar coasts, its motor is a generator and 17 acts as a generator and puts power back into the 18 line. This sends power to other parts of the 19 line, increasing your energy value, producing no 20 fumes at the point of operation, an important 21 fact. With improved power generation, light 22 rail will be a true zero emission vehicle. 23 The investment in construction of a 24 permanent way, such as a street railway, conveys MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 102 1 a long-term commitment to provide high quality 2 service now and into the future. Bus options 3 make no such commitment. They are too easily 4 rerouted or curtailed. 5 The presence of such permanent 6 facilities have demonstrated tangible, positive 7 private sector economic and social spin-off 8 effects. Real estate values in Brookline, 9 Milton, and Newton would be just such an 10 example, as well as the enduring popularity that 11 light rail has in these localities. 12 Often overlooked is the 13 psychological factor where public use facilities 14 are concerned. Consider how many government and 15 private institutions conduct their business in 16 structures made out of large stone blocks or 17 other durable materials. This serves a function 18 to reassure the general public with the 19 appearance of stability and endurance through 20 the ages. 21 Hey, no doubt it would have been 22 more cost-effective to place a bunch of trailers 23 and tin sheds in an asphalt parking lot in lieu 24 of Boston City Hall and the Plaza, but what does MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 103 1 this say about our civilization? A street 2 tramway conveys these same characteristics that 3 the public wants to see preserved in our public 4 facilities. 5 The current Green Line complex was 6 designed to function best with several lines 7 feeding into it at almost conveyor belt 8 headways. Now, this is a big red herring. When 9 that thing was opened in 1898, there were 26 car 10 lines feeding into that. There were six car 11 lines feeding into that into the 1950's. The 12 idea that they can't put increased frequencies 13 in that subway is simply not true. 14 And maximum utilization of existing 15 physical service plant should be considered. 16 Light rail satisfies the need for compatibility 17 with existing facilities, versatility under 18 various operating conditions, and expandability, 19 to build upon what has already been constructed. 20 Overcrowding can be attributed to the removal of 21 lines feeding into this complex over the years, 22 as well as removal from service of several parts 23 of the original system. 24 Tramways can and do function in MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 104 1 many places as mobile traffic-calming devices, 2 making the streetscape more pedestrian friendly. 3 The Centre and South Street 4 segments of this line are historically 5 significant, passing through some of the 6 original streetcar suburbs of Boston. The zeal 7 to eradicate this survivor of the city's 8 transportation and development history, in light 9 of the broad support to the contrary, and the 10 relative ease to rehabilitate, is a throwback to 11 the kind of institutional arrogance that forever 12 destroyed Boston's West End in a scorched earth 13 urban renewal scheme. 14 Most of the bus substitutions that 15 occurred in the 20th century were strictly a 16 cost-cutting measure stimulated by competing 17 petroleum interests, that actually degraded 18 service quality and precipitated mass transit's 19 subsequent hemorrhaging of ridership. Bus 20 substitutions on the Green Line system, 21 publicized as temporary, were invariably a 22 downgrade of service that strained the 23 credibility of those who rationalize such 24 action. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 105 1 In cities all over the globe, and I 2 have been to a lot of them, there are examples 3 and precedents that show preservation and 4 restoration of trolley systems make sense on the 5 entire spectrum of issues, from public safety to 6 functionalism to cost effectiveness over the 7 long term. The revival of light rail has been a 8 success story time and again all over North 9 America. 10 I have been in places like Antwerp 11 and Prague that have tighter confines than us. 12 And I just got some pictures -- I have been to 13 the meeting of light rail operations in 14 Allentown, in Pittsburgh. And again, the 15 transit authority there also had a long- 16 standing institutional fear and loathing of 17 light rail, and public protest essentially kept 18 this line from dying. 19 So I urge you people to continue 20 your fight. You are fighting the good fight. 21 (Applause) 22 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Questions? 23 Anyone have any questions? It's after eight, so 24 I would like to hear from people who have not MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 106 1 spoken tonight. 2 MR. NATHAN: Dave Nathan, 263 3 Chestnut Avenue. 4 I have a couple of related 5 questions about something that Kevin Moloney 6 just briefly mentioned, and that was the new 7 Boston-MBTA pact on the Arborway Yard. Now, 8 Kevin mentioned that there's just a very short 9 turnaround piece of track, that it's only point 10 eight, I think he said -- 11 MR. MOLONEY: Eight tenths of an 12 acre. 13 MR. NATHAN: That's the only piece 14 of real estate out of perhaps 15 acres that's 15 dedicated to the electric trolley if it comes 16 back. 17 Now, my questions, my related 18 questions are, there has to be a maintenance, a 19 storage and maintenance facility at least 20 partially indoors for those trolleys. 21 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: This would not 22 be a heavy maintenance area. This would be 23 light maintenance. 24 MR. NATHAN: There would have to be MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 107 1 a place for the trolleys to be cleaned and 2 repaired. There are things you just can't do 3 outside when it's pouring. That would seem to 4 indicate that there's going to have to be, if 5 trolleys come back, some kind of revision of bus 6 transportation and storage facilities in order 7 to accommodate some indoor electric trolley 8 activities. I imagine it's going to have to be 9 revised then. Can someone speak to that? 10 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I'm not sure 11 if it will have to be revised per se. It all 12 depends on what comes out of this. 13 MR. MOLONEY: Can I speak to that? 14 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I'd rather see 15 if someone who hasn't -- 16 MR. MOLONEY: Well, he asked a good 17 question, and the question will allow people to 18 think more properly as to the nature of that 19 agreement. 20 There is a fixed agreement between 21 the Jamaica Plain community, represented by the 22 Community Planning Committee for the Arborway 23 Yard, and the mayor, representing the city, on 24 the one hand, and between the City and the T on MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 108 1 the other. And it's fixed in stone that there 2 be only eight-tenths of an acre for the LRV's if 3 the LRV's are restored. If the LRV's are 4 restored, the number of buses that can be 5 garaged at the new facility will drop from a 6 hundred eighteen down to a hundred and four. 7 If you look at the drawing that's 8 been circulated, it's showing that the agreement 9 between the community and the other two public 10 entities is feasible, to use that popular word. 11 All you see are just the tracks coming into the 12 yard at the corner and maybe three or four 13 tracks where the trolleys will be stored. 14 The more important question is 15 whether any of that cost of this new bus CNG 16 facility has been included in the T's numbers in 17 the capital costs for their bus scenario, is the 18 question. 19 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Thank you for 20 that clarification. 21 Yes, sir. 22 MR. NEDELJKOVIC: I'm Serge 23 Nedeljkovic. I live in Newton and work at 24 Brigham and Women's Hospital. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 109 1 Frankly, I'm -- I read through your 2 handout here. I missed the presentation. But 3 I'm shocked and confused at your findings 4 because they are so contrary to what many other 5 cities have found and have done recently. And I 6 just went through some Internet sites in the 7 last few days in anticipation of this meeting. 8 Just this month a new rail line 9 opened in St. Louis on the east side. In 10 Portland they're opening a line mixed with 11 traffic, a streetcar line mixed with traffic, 12 which is a first for that city. Dallas -- 13 Philadelphia is rehabilitating the old PCC line, 14 route 15. Dallas, Denver, Toronto. People have 15 mentioned some of these things. 16 These are cities that have much 17 less of a heritage in streetcars than Boston 18 does, and yet they are finding value in 19 rehabilitating these lines. Why are the results 20 of this study so contrary and dissimilar to what 21 all these other cities have found in terms of 22 air quality, transit usage, effect on local 23 businesses, operational effectiveness? 24 All of these alternatives that you MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 110 1 evaluated are contrary to what every other city 2 and agency, as far as I know, has found in 3 determining whether or not they are going to 4 reestablish, or institute for the very first 5 time, light transit. 6 And I have one more question after 7 this, but I'm wondering if you might have an 8 answer for that. 9 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Portland, 10 Oregon, for example, has an 80-foot right-of-way 11 that you are referring to for mixed traffic. It 12 makes a big, big difference. 13 But it's a big global question that 14 you asked, and I'm not sure we have the answer, 15 other than all the talk that has been handled 16 this evening. So if you have another question, 17 maybe we can answer that. 18 MR. NEDELJKOVIC: Well, I do have 19 one more question. 20 And I respect your efforts very 21 much, but the model that you are presenting is 22 only as good as the input, as many have 23 mentioned here, that's delivered to it. And I 24 have trouble accepting your conclusions because MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 111 1 I have a question in my mind that there may have 2 been a certain bias going into this study had by 3 the executive board of the MBTA. 4 And if you could just answer that 5 question for me. Do you believe or do you think 6 that there might have been a bias in conducting 7 this study? 8 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: CTPS, Central 9 Transportation Planning Staff, is an independent 10 entity. It's not with the MBTA. It is an 11 independent agency that does testing or analysis 12 of modeling for a lot of different entities. 13 And they have been doing it now for -- 14 MR. MAHAL: Twenty-five years. 15 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Twenty-five 16 years. So it was not a T study internally. It 17 was done with the Central Transportation 18 Planning Staff. 19 Yes, anyone else who hasn't spoken? 20 Yes, sir. You haven't. 21 MR. REISKIND: My name is Mike 22 Reiskind, and I live at 425 South Huntington 23 Avenue, on the Green Line. 24 Thank you for this study. I think MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 112 1 it's good that you have started to work on a 2 comparison between these two major alternatives. 3 And I think we have learned some stuff as we 4 have done that. And it's an important decision, 5 of course, that affects development of 6 businesses along the corridor, and I hope the 7 decision is not done lightly or off the cuff. 8 And it takes some time to work through that. 9 I have five questions and four 10 comments, and I hope the questions I can go 11 through quickly. One is, on the 11 stops 12 outside Heath Street, I think Seaverns is in the 13 wrong location. I think Seaverns should be 14 between Pond and the Monument, and not between 15 Halifax and Robinwood, on this one. 16 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Okay. 17 MR. REISKIND: When you say 11 18 stops from Heath Street to the Arborway, is that 19 just -- that's in one direction. So you are not 20 counting in both directions. 21 MR. MAHAL: No. 22 MR. REISKIND: And then I wanted to 23 know, you say the total stops for the CNG bus is 24 what: 36? MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 113 1 MS. BARROW: Yes. 2 MR. REISKIND: So that's also just 3 in one direction? 4 MS. BARROW: One direction. 5 MR. REISKIND: Okay. To compare 6 it, since you only do these stops for the LRV 7 outbound from Heath Street, what are the total 8 number of stops on the LRV that we can compare 9 with your 36 for the bus? Do you have that? 10 MR. MAHAL: Between Heath and Park 11 Street -- 12 MR. REISKIND: Between Heath and 13 Forest Hills or Arborway is 11, but how much 14 from Heath to Park? So that we can get a total 15 comparison. 16 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: She will count 17 it up if you want to do your comments, finish 18 your comments. 19 MR. REISKIND: Okay. When you did 20 your analysis, you are saying the total number 21 of parking spaces that need to be added for each 22 alternative. You say like there are 38 parking 23 spaces. This is in one direction only? I guess 24 this is one direction only, 38 stops needed for MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 114 1 the bus alternative? 2 MS. BARROW: I'm sorry. I was 3 trying to count the stops. 4 MR. REISKIND: Yes, I know. That's 5 okay. 6 MS. BARROW: Say the beginning part 7 of the question again. 8 MR. REISKIND: I'm trying to 9 compare the number of parking spaces lost per 10 each alternative. You say there are 38 parking 11 spaces to be lost for the bus alternative. You 12 said that's approximately one space per stop, 36 13 stops on the bus alternative, 38 parking spaces 14 lost. 15 But since the 36 stops are in one 16 direction, shouldn't these be doubled, or am I 17 -- 18 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I thought that 19 you were talking a loss in the corridor. 20 MS. BARROW: I was just talking 21 about Forest Hills to Heath, just the loss from 22 Forest Hills. 23 MR. REISKIND: So the loss in the 24 parking for each alternative is just for Forest MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 115 1 Hills to Heath. 2 MS. BARROW: That's right. 3 MR. REISKIND: All right. What 4 about any losses that need to be done since you 5 are lengthening the bus stops going up Beacon 6 Street, Park Street, Tremont and Stuart? The 7 whole thing is -- 8 MS. BARROW: In our report we took 9 that into account. It's in the report. We 10 counted that. 11 MR. REISKIND: But it's not in 12 this. 13 MS. BARROW: It wasn't on this 14 slide. 15 MR. REISKIND: Okay. That's why 16 I'm getting confused. 17 What about, did you take into your 18 analysis the gain in parking spaces since the 39 19 bus will not be running along the right-of-way 20 from Brigham Circle to -- Brigham Circle 21 inbound, the gain in parking spaces, since those 22 39 stops go away? Did you put that into your 23 analysis? 24 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Why would MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 116 1 there be a gain? We are using the same stops. 2 MR. REISKIND: Because there's no 3 bus stops. 4 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Oh, oh. So 5 you eliminated the 39. Oh, okay. 6 MR. REISKIND: See, the whole thing 7 is that it is a comparison, and that's what we 8 asked you to do, and you have started on that. 9 So it's obviously a seesaw. If you do the 10 balance on one end of Brigham Circle, you have 11 to compare your impacts on the other end. 12 So all the bus stops have to be 13 lengthened from Brigham Circle in for the 14 inbound, for the CNG. And you say you've done 15 that, but you didn't show it on the slides. 16 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I thought 17 that -- 18 MR. REISKIND: But there is also a 19 negative loss, therefore a gain of parking 20 spaces, if the 39 bus isn't running. 21 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: We can take a 22 look at that, but I thought the focus was more 23 on Heath to Forest Hills because -- 24 MR. REISKIND: I think your focus MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 117 1 is. 2 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Because of the 3 impact on parking on that particular stretch. 4 The impact further down on parking may not be as 5 great as it would be there, and I think that's 6 why the focus. But we can check to see -- 7 MR. REISKIND: I understand your 8 focus. I think our focus is to make the whole 9 corridor run best, and I think the pro-LRV 10 people are trying to look at the whole corridor 11 practically running best. And if you do a true 12 comparison, you have to look at the impacts on 13 all ends of the corridor. 14 You have clearly concentrated on 15 the parking and some of the negative impacts of 16 street-running service past Heath Street. Our 17 main claim is that there are serious and worse 18 impacts on bus-running service from Brigham 19 Circle all the way to Park Street on the street. 20 And I think you have left most of 21 those out. You have left them out in your 22 display slides, and I think you might have left 23 them out in your analysis, and that I think is 24 an important thing to consider to do a true MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 118 1 comparison. 2 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: We can 3 definitely look at the parking. 4 MR. REISKIND: So the parking is 5 one of them. 6 Let me just get this other one 7 clear. When you say a maintenance facility on 8 here is an impact of LRV-restored service, I 9 think we have agreed, isn't it correct, that 10 that's a mistake? There is no maintenance 11 facility anticipated at Arborway? 12 MS. BARROW: You would need to be 13 able to do light maintenance at the end of the 14 line. 15 MR. REISKIND: Right. But you are 16 running a line now to Heath Street, and you do 17 light maintenance on the E Line. And our whole 18 contention is that no other one needs to be 19 added if you are just lengthening the line. You 20 are already running an E Line service to the 21 edge of Jamaica Plain, and I don't think you 22 need another maintenance facility there. 23 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Subway ops 24 suggested we needed a facility at the end for MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 119 1 the storage. 2 MR. REISKIND: All right. I don't 3 think that's true, and that's why -- okay. 4 Trip time, when you -- this gets to 5 the main point. The ridership is very clearly 6 based on the trip time and the incentive to use 7 one alternative or the other. Your trip time I 8 think is only six minutes' difference. I think 9 that has to be looked at more carefully. 10 When you looked at your trip time, 11 did you just do the inbound trip time or the 12 outbound, or just assume that they were the 13 same? 14 MR. MAHAL: No, trip times are 15 quoted for each direction separately. If there 16 is a small difference between inbound and 17 outbound times, then they are captured in the 18 model. 19 MR. REISKIND: Right. 20 MR. MAHAL: By the way, it's not 21 only based just on trip time. It's a lot of 22 other things. 23 MR. REISKIND: Yes. Headway, trip 24 time, cost, fares, right. But trip time is a MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 120 1 very important one, and we have always done 2 that. 3 Our main contention, have you -- 4 did you take into consideration that outbound 5 trip time for Green Line LRV restored service 6 only has -- is different from, significantly 7 different from an inbound trip time? Because 8 the fare system now does not -- it's a free ride 9 outbound on the Green Line, so all cars -- all 10 doors are opened, and therefore you have much 11 lower dwell time. 12 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I think Conrad 13 could comment on that. 14 MR. MISEK: I would just like to 15 say, when we looked at the Green Line running 16 times, we looked at the practical experience we 17 had in the early 80's. 18 MR. REISKIND: Okay. 19 MR. MISEK: That's what we used. 20 And all those variables, time of day and 21 direction, were all factored in. 22 MR. REISKIND: Okay. So that's the 23 end of my questions, and I will do some quick 24 comments. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 121 1 I think your trip time is off. For 2 so many added stops in very heavy congested 3 traffic on the downtown route, an extra added 4 six minutes does not seem at all correct, and I 5 think that would drastically affect your 6 ridership. And I would urge you very strongly 7 to look at that. I don't think that's right. 8 Secondly, on your emergency vehicle 9 traffic analysis in which you looked carefully 10 at the emergency vehicles in congested traffic 11 with LRV's on the street running, you looked at 12 that. Did you analyze -- first of all, I asked 13 at the last meeting, do not just look at the 14 flexibility of a guided vehicle versus a rubber- 15 tracked vehicle, but also the frequency at which 16 that transit vehicle is on the street when an 17 emergency vehicle comes out. 18 Since your headways are different 19 for your LRV's and your buses, the probability 20 of an emergency vehicle encountering a transit 21 vehicle is radically different for the two 22 alternatives. So it's not only the flexibility 23 and how quickly they can get out of the way and 24 how congested it is, but the probability of MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 122 1 encountering an emergency vehicle -- of a 2 transit vehicle when an emergency vehicle comes 3 out. 4 And you were asked to do that to 5 get a true comparison. Did you do that in your 6 analysis? 7 MS. BARROW: The frequency of -- it 8 might have been there. It's not -- 9 MR. REISKIND: URS was asked to do 10 that last time. If you're using the old URS -- 11 MS. BARROW: We did not supplement 12 their work. 13 MR. REISKIND: Okay. URS also 14 didn't look at the extra transit trips that are 15 going downtown and the emergency vehicles that 16 are now going to be encountering transit 17 vehicles where there are none on the other part 18 of the seesaw. You didn't add a supplement to 19 URS's study on the emergency -- 20 MS. BARROW: What's the seesaw? 21 I'm sorry. 22 MR. REISKIND: The comparison of 23 the alternatives downtown, when the transit 24 vehicles are on their own right-of-way. You are MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 123 1 putting buses into the street running -- you are 2 running a lot more transit vehicles on Beacon 3 Street, Park Street, Tremont and Stuart that 4 emergency vehicles would have to encounter but 5 do not encounter now. So your result in saying 6 LRV's would worsen traffic may be true, although 7 I don't think it's significantly true in Jamaica 8 Plain, it would -- it clearly improves traffic 9 by your same analysis on the downtown portion of 10 the corridor. 11 And I'm asking if you looked at any 12 emergency vehicle problems in the downtown -- 13 MS. BARROW: No, we didn't take 14 into account the prevalence of emergency 15 vehicles. 16 MR. REISKIND: Okay. I'm just 17 saying it's a balance, like a seesaw, and you 18 have to look at both ends of the corridor for a 19 true comparison. 20 So I think the comparison there is 21 flawed. And we talked about the parking 22 comparison may be flawed. So if you look at the 23 extra added spaces that would come out -- so I 24 would urge you to do that. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 124 1 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Someone who 2 hasn't spoken? It's almost 8:30. I want to 3 make sure everybody has a chance. 4 Yes? 5 MR. DEACON: I have a couple of 6 process questions here. The Arborway corridor 7 is defined as from Park Street to the Arborway. 8 As part of this process, the addition of a 9 significant new bus service around Boston Common 10 is going to have an impact on the neighborhoods 11 all along the route. 12 So have organizations such as 13 Beacon Hill Civic Association been notified of 14 this study? And has the public participation 15 process been extended to the neighborhoods 16 between Copley Square and to Beacon Hill, et 17 cetera, including Back Bay Civic Association, 18 Business Association of the Back Bay and all 19 those associations? Are they included in this 20 process? Because they will be impacted probably 21 significantly and negatively if this process 22 were to be implemented. 23 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Not up to this 24 point. MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 125 1 MR. DEACON: Okay. So I'm asking 2 that that be done. 3 Secondly of all, my suspicion is 4 that -- this is just my suspicion -- is that 5 they will be notified, actually, of this 6 proposal to run 60-foot, articulated 60-foot 7 buses around Boston Common, and the MBTA will be 8 told that they won't be allowed to do that. 9 Then where does this all stand? Does the MBTA 10 then go back and say, "We have to do another 11 alternative analysis"? 12 My feeling at this point is that 13 since the Green Line restoration is not 14 infeasible, that the Green Line should be 15 restored as soon as possible. That is, 16 immediately. But if you want to continue with 17 this game, what will the MBTA's next 18 pronouncement be? 19 And I'm not asking you to say, 20 because obviously the Beacon Hill Civic 21 Association and all the neighborhood groups down 22 there are going to be hoopy over this proposal. 23 And they are going to go back, and the MBTA will 24 be told that they can't do this. So this isn't MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 126 1 really a real proposal. 2 So in the background is a real 3 proposal someplace. And I'm not even saying 4 that people here have any -- are, you know, are 5 ready to present it. But there's a fallback 6 position here, and I think that needs to be 7 dealt with. 8 And I have a few questions here. 9 One of the pages here, study background, the 10 study background doesn't reference the 1987 11 study. 12 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: I referenced 13 it in my comments before you got here. 14 MR. DEACON: Thank you. 15 I'm going to go quickly through 16 here, if I may. Okay. Now, under the light 17 rail alternative implementation, when it says 18 "new track along the entire corridor," that's 19 only between Heath Street and Forest Hills? 20 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: That's 21 correct. 22 MR. DEACON: Okay. You have 23 "installation of a new overhead electrical 24 system"? MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 127 1 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: That's 2 correct. 3 MR. DEACON: "Reconstruction of 4 roadway." In one case, South Street, is going 5 to be reconstructed anyway. 6 Has, in terms of the cost figures, 7 has that been figured in, that South Street is 8 going to be reconstructed? With or without the 9 Arborway, that South Street is scheduled to be 10 reconstructed? 11 MS. BARROW: We only counted the 12 cost of track replacement, not the roadway 13 reconstruction. 14 MR. DEACON: In terms of bus stops, 15 just for my own personal curiosity I would like 16 actually like to know the actual length of all 17 the bus stops along the Arborway corridor right 18 now. I suspect some of them don't meet 40 to 60 19 feet. 20 MR. MISEK: Sixty to 80 foot. 21 MR. DEACON: Sixty to 80 foot? By 22 looking at this, some of them, they seemed to be 23 a lot smaller than that. So I would like to get 24 an idea of exactly how long the bus stops are MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 128 1 along the Arborway corridor. 2 Again, Michael Reiskind's comments 3 about the seesaw. You have to look at what the 4 impacts are all the way out, from Park Street 5 all the way out, in terms of accommodating 6 60-foot articulated buses. 7 You have to look also, when you are 8 doing air pollution and air quality analysis, 9 you have to look at a few other things. You 10 have to look at the cost and the air quality 11 impact from having 60-foot buses going through 12 an already congested area both in terms of 13 slowing traffic down and in terms of not being 14 able to get through the intersection, traffic 15 not being able to move through the intersection, 16 all the things that are usually brought into 17 alternatives analysis. So there's a negative 18 air quality impact of all those buses now 19 running between Back Bay station and downtown 20 Boston. 21 There is also an air impact. When 22 you do the air impact analysis and you come to 23 basically the same results for the Arborway 24 corridor, when you say "results for the Arborway MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 129 1 corridor," is that all the way between Park 2 Street and Forest Hills? 3 MR. MAHAL: Yes. 4 MR. DEACON: All right. So I'm 5 assuming that this is smokestack pollutants from 6 power plants that -- 7 MR. MAHAL: No. This is the total 8 pollution emitted by all traffic, transit and 9 auto. 10 MR. DEACON: Have you factored in 11 the fact that traffic will actually move slower 12 and that air quality will be affected? 13 MR. MAHAL: Yes. 14 MR. DEACON: On the section between 15 Copley and downtown Boston to Park Street? 16 MR. MAHAL: Yes. 17 MR. DEACON: So you factored that 18 in? 19 MR. MAHAL: Yes, the effect of 20 congested traffic is figured in. 21 MR. DEACON: I'm sorry? 22 MR. MAHAL: Yes, it is figured in. 23 The effect of congested traffic -- 24 MR. DEACON: I'm sorry. I missed MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 130 1 the word before "traffic." 2 MR. MAHAL: The effect. 3 MR. DEACON: Of congested traffic. 4 MR. MAHAL: Yes. 5 MR. DEACON: So that's along the 6 entire corridor? 7 MR. MAHAL: Yes. 8 MR. DEACON: Oh, okay. So that's 9 been factored in. That's interesting, very 10 interesting. So it's the same for both 11 alternatives? Roughly the same? 12 MR. MAHAL: Yes. 13 MR. DEACON: Now, is this just for 14 the vehicles themselves, for the transit 15 vehicles, or is this all traffic? 16 MR. MAHAL: All traffic, all 17 traffic. 18 MR. DEACON: Interesting. All 19 right. Interesting. 20 Cost, I make my comment that I 21 always make on this thing, which is that you 22 can't use a different standard for the Arborway 23 corridor than you are using for other Green Line 24 corridors or for other corridors. So that if MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 131 1 you buy new streetcars, or if you build track 2 for Beacon Street, you have to use the same 3 analysis for the Arborway corridor. 4 The issue here is infeasibility. 5 You haven't proven infeasibility. The service 6 should be restored as soon as possible. I think 7 the issue is not whether it's practical or 8 reasonable or a good thing or anything else. 9 The issue here is really investment decisions by 10 the state, not necessarily by the MBTA, because 11 the MBTA is basically told what investment 12 decisions it will make. They really don't make 13 the decisions. 14 The decisions are made on a higher 15 level, which is called the Metropolitan Planning 16 Organization, on which many state agencies sit, 17 and that's where these decisions are made. And 18 I would hope that Secretary Durand and the 19 Department of Environmental Protection would 20 stick to the letter of the law here and require 21 the MPO to direct the MBTA to indeed restore 22 Arborway service as soon as possible. 23 MODERATOR DiZOGLIO: Thank you. 24 It's 8:35, and I know that some MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 132 1 people have questions. If you want, we can end 2 the formal part, and if you want to come up and 3 ask your questions, people can try to answer 4 them. But we are going to get thrown out of 5 here any minute. We were supposed to only go to 6 eight. 7 So if you've got some things you 8 want to talk about you can come on down and 9 talk. 10 Thank you very much for coming this 11 evening. 12 13 (Whereupon the meeting ended 14 at 8:35 p.m.) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207 133 1 CERTIFICATE 2 3 4 Commonwealth of Massachusetts 5 Suffolk, ss. 6 7 8 I, Kathleen L. McCarthy, Registered 9 Professional Reporter and Notary Public, do 10 hereby certify that the foregoing record, pages 11 1 through 132, inclusive, is a complete accurate 12 and true transcription of my stenographic notes 13 taken in the aforementioned matter to the best 14 of my skills and ability. 15 _____________________ 16 Kathleen L. McCarthy RPR 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MAHANEY REPORTING SERVICES Tel. (617) 542-4207